Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: How many matches would Archie Moore win vs the listed ten all time greats at 175 ?
1 0 0%
2 1 2.78%
3 0 0%
4 2 5.56%
5 8 22.22%
6 9 25.00%
7 8 22.22%
8 6 16.67%
9 2 5.56%
10 0 0%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-02-2007, 07:17 PM   #16
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,629
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Much of what you say is true but what must be said is that Moore literally dozens of contests with top 1% opposition. Jones had, what - arguably one? Count weight-drained Toney for two. Of course he was KO'd a few times.

Moore is the puncher in this fight. He is the all-time KO king fighting at his best weight. Jones is an all time talented slickster fighting one weight above his best, the same weight where he was KO'd by fighters a whole level below the guys who KO'd Moore.

I don't object to your pick - Jones is a monster H2H, and anyone claiming to be 100% sure about this one on fight night is a mook - but I do think you underestimate Moore a little bit.

Have another look at him when you get time.
People are pretty hard on RJJs comp, lets look

Toney - ATG

BHOPs - ATG

McCallum - ATG

Virgil Hill - ATG? Top LHW stopped in 4 by RJJ, went 12 with Darius Michouski (sp)

Tarver (won the first) - allot of wins over contenders cleaning out 175 before he fought RJJ first time

Ruiz - top5 HW of the 00s

Montel Griffin - undefeated excellent fighter beat in 1 by RJJ

Reggie Johnson - 2 weight champ, went to an SD with Toney - easily dominated

Gonzalez - beat Darius Michauseski (sp)

Hall - beat comprehensively, arguably robbed against Darius Michauski (sp)

Harding - RJJ stops the man fresh from a win over Tarver

Woods - current champ with wins over Glen Johnson, Gonzalez, Hoye

Del Valle - WBA champ, easily beaten

Otis GRant - WBO Middleweight champ in his prime dominated and stopped

Malinga - beat Nigel Benn once (many say he was robbed in the first fight), went to an SD against Chris Eubank beat a few champs, robbed a few times

Tate - ko'd in 2, went 12 with ATG puncher Julian Jackson

Paziana - 2 weight champ, fresh off wins over an old duran, ko'd in 6 easily

Thornton - ko'd in 3, took Toney and Eubank 12 (both punchers).

Brannon - undefeated contender, excellent pressure fighter (video on this)

Sosa - beat 2 champion - Glen Johnson and 2 weight champ Charles Williams

People say RJJ would not be able to handle pressure fighters. I urge everyone to watch the Brannon fight:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 10-02-2007, 07:26 PM   #17
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,728
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Toney - ATG
Yep. But Toney was horribely weight-drained and no rematch. Jones is better than Toney but arematch would have done him good.

Quote:
BHOPs - ATG
His best win.

Quote:
McCallum - ATG
Borderline.

Quote:
Virgil Hill - ATG? Top LHW stopped in 4 by RJJ, went 12 with Darius Michouski (sp)
No. Not for me.


I think you're right, people are hard on Jones' competition. But Moore fought by far the better fighters and as a result he has more losses.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2007, 07:26 PM   #18
Drew101
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: "...The Land of Dixon and Langford..."
Posts: 8,424
vCash: 8315
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Bob Fitzsimmons~ Fitz obviously has the puncher's chance, but I think Moore's cool and edge in terms of skill sees him through some rough spots to score a late KO.

Sam Langford~ Two pretty similar approaches, actually. 50/50, but, Moore generally displayed a higher workrate, which might make him more likely to secure a decision in a close fight.

Jack Dillion~ Moore's height advantage, plus his educated jab, allows him to dictate the pace to secure a decision.

Tommy Loughran~ Loughran beats a lot of people with his jab and legs. But, as Moore showed against Johnson, it takes more than that to beat Moore.

Gene Tunney~ Tough fight to pick, but I get the feeling Moore pulls out a close decision, based on superior power, and equally sound defensive ability.

Maxie Rosenbloom ~ Moore doesn't stop him, but he wins.

Ezzard Charles~ It happened three times, when Moore was approaching his peak. Three times he lost. Charles vexes Moore, even at his peak, and pulls out a close win.

Bob Foster~ Foster was a pretty sound boxer when he had to be, and he kept his power throughout the fight. I say he scores a come from behind victory late.

Mike Spinks~ I think Spinks' versatility, and power, enable him to pull out the close decision.

Roy Jones~ Kind of the opposite of my Foster pick. I could see Jones easily leading the fight, but Moore breaking him down with bodyshots, and landing something big to pull out the late round kayo.

So...7 out of 10. Not too shabby at all.
Drew101 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2007, 07:30 PM   #19
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,629
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Yep. But Toney was horribely weight-drained and no rematch. Jones is better than Toney but arematch would have done him good.

BHOPS - His best win.

McCallum - Borderline.

Hill - No. Not for me.

I think you're right, people are hard on Jones' competition. But Moore fought by far the better fighters and as a result he has more losses.
I disagree, Moore has more losses because he wasn't as good as RJJ, he fought allot but few were elite.

Toney did not deserve a rematch after losing every round. He would have got a rematch if he didnt lose to Montell Griffin and others

BHOPS best win? Maybe but not his best performance

McCallum - definately an ATG BUT OLD. Then again McCallum aged like BHOPs

Hill - probably not but better than most fighters Moore ever faced
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2007, 11:21 PM   #20
Marciano Frazier
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,469
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

I voted 7. Although Moore hadn't reached his best yet when they fought, Charles did beat him all three times, so he has to be given the edge head-to-head, I though Moore-Langford was pretty even or maybe a slight edge to Langford, and I figured that with such a formidable roster he'd probably lose one or two along the line against the other eight, so 7 came across as the fairest total.
Marciano Frazier is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2007, 11:42 PM   #21
Marciano Frazier
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,469
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
I disagree, Moore has more losses because he wasn't as good as RJJ, he fought allot but few were elite.
Few elite fighters?!?!?!? Let's see, here... from the early 1940s all the way through the early '60s, he fought the following future Hall-of-Fame opponents(I may have forgotten a couple somewhere in here):
Eddie Booker(three times), Charley Burley, Holman Williams(twice), Lloyd Marshall(twice), Ezzard Charles(three times), Joey Maxim(three times), Jimmy Bivins(five times), Clarence Henry, Harold Johnson(five times), Bobo Olsen, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Willie Pastrano, and Muhammad Ali.
I count 30 fights against future Hall-of-Fame opponents, out of 220 listed for him on boxrec. That means that a little under one in every seven of Moore's fights was against a future Hall-of-Fame opponent. All of this is just Hall-of-Famers, again, mind you- I'm not even going into the plethora of other quality contenders he fought all the way from middleweight to heavyweight over a span of 25+ years. In short, it doesn't get much more ignorant than saying Archie Moore fought few elite fighters.
Further, from mid-1949 through mid-1960, a rund of 80 fights which I consider to more or less encompass his prime(I'd say he really reached his peak in the early '50s and started declining in about '58, but a few years around the borders can be included), Moore was 75-3-2, and the only losses were to Harold Johnson(who he beat four times out of five), Marciano and Patterson, all of whom were definitely elite fighters. The wins included seven over future Hall-of-Fame opponents. Note his win-loss record is every bit as good as Jones' here, and in the three losses, we have two to great heavyweight champions, and one against a great light heavyweight champion who he fought five times(if Jones had had to fight Hopkins and Toney five times, I suspect he'd lose one to them, too). And their win resumes? Moore blows him away.
Marciano Frazier is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 07:27 AM   #22
Mendoza
Dominating a decade
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,463
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Few elite fighters?!?!?!? Let's see, here... from the early 1940s all the way through the early '60s, he fought the following future Hall-of-Fame opponents(I may have forgotten a couple somewhere in here):
Eddie Booker(three times), Charley Burley, Holman Williams(twice), Lloyd Marshall(twice), Ezzard Charles(three times), Joey Maxim(three times), Jimmy Bivins(five times), Clarence Henry, Harold Johnson(five times), Bobo Olsen, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Willie Pastrano, and Muhammad Ali.
I count 30 fights against future Hall-of-Fame opponents, out of 220 listed for him on boxrec. That means that a little under one in every seven of Moore's fights was against a future Hall-of-Fame opponent. All of this is just Hall-of-Famers, again, mind you- I'm not even going into the plethora of other quality contenders he fought all the way from middleweight to heavyweight over a span of 25+ years. In short, it doesn't get much more ignorant than saying Archie Moore fought few elite fighters.
Further, from mid-1949 through mid-1960, a rund of 80 fights which I consider to more or less encompass his prime(I'd say he really reached his peak in the early '50s and started declining in about '58, but a few years around the borders can be included), Moore was 75-3-2, and the only losses were to Harold Johnson(who he beat four times out of five), Marciano and Patterson, all of whom were definitely elite fighters. The wins included seven over future Hall-of-Fame opponents. Note his win-loss record is every bit as good as Jones' here, and in the three losses, we have two to great heavyweight champions, and one against a great light heavyweight champion who he fought five times(if Jones had had to fight Hopkins and Toney five times, I suspect he'd lose one to them, too). And their win resumes? Moore blows him away.
Very good post. Moore's resume is the very definition of battle tested. I agree with you regarding Moore’s resume. I also think Power Puncher made a point as well. Moore was an action oriented fighter on film. Charles defeated Moore 3-0 in the series, knocked him out once, and had him down in the other fights. Bivins also knocked Moore out. What does this mean? It means Langford, Fitzsimmons, and Foster who hit harder than Charles or Bivins could do the same.

After close review, I'm not sure if Moore matches up as well vs power punchers. For my money Spinks, Tunney, and maybe Roy Jones hit nearly as hard or harder than Charles and Bivins. Spinks, and Tunney had top Chins. Jones did not have a good chin, but he had the best speed and skills at 175.

Moore's best match up in my opinion are vs the boxer types without big punches ( Harold Johnson and Joey Maxim ) due to his aggressive nature. This means he likely beats Loughran, and Rosenbloom.

Many of the other matches are close 40/60 or 60/40 for Moore, which is why I can't see Archie winning 7 or more. I think " 5 " or " 6 " makes sense for me. These threads to me are interesting. I plan on doing a middle weight next.
Mendoza is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 08:29 AM   #23
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,629
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Few elite fighters?!?!?!? Let's see, here... from the early 1940s all the way through the early '60s, he fought the following future Hall-of-Fame opponents(I may have forgotten a couple somewhere in here):
Eddie Booker(three times), Charley Burley, Holman Williams(twice), Lloyd Marshall(twice), Ezzard Charles(three times), Joey Maxim(three times), Jimmy Bivins(five times), Clarence Henry, Harold Johnson(five times), Bobo Olsen, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Willie Pastrano, and Muhammad Ali.
.
If you look at those hall of famers, it isn't very impressive, because he came up short against the very best he faced

Fighters who dominated Moore

Ali - completely dominated and stopped

MArciano - dominated and stopped

Patterson - dominated and stopped

Charles - beaten 3 out of 3

Burley - The Welterweight beat him twice, knocking him out and beating him on points knocking him down 4 TIMES!!!

Fighter he lost of went level with

Booker - knocked out, being put down 4 times. Drew the other 2 going down another 2 times

Holman Williams - 1-1

Pastrano - draw

Fighters he beat

Harold Johnson - won the series 4-1 - best wins? But not much of a puncher

Maxim - 3 wins near the end of his career against a weaker champion. Maxim was ofcourse Charles left overs. He go a gift decision against Patterson and got the W over SRR due to SRR collapsing with heat exhaustion rather than Maxim actually giving the man a beating

Lloyd Marshall - 2 good wins

Olsen - good win against a smaller man

Henry - fringe contender

Bivins - 4-1 fringe contender coming off allot of recent losses and probably past prime. Bivins won the first fight by KO when he was probably nearer to his prime.

Moore definately fought the best of his time, but he came up short against the very best of his time. Also the quality of many of these fighters is overrated (obviously excluding a few)
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 08:32 AM   #24
rydersonthestorm
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,596
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Why do people start on about jones chin being weak, he got old fast and didn't have his chin tested in his prime so how can people say it was weak etc.
rydersonthestorm is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 08:55 AM   #25
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,728
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
I disagree, Moore has more losses because he wasn't as good as RJJ, he fought allot but few were elite.
My friend - coming from a guy who's defending Jones' record that is pretty rich. Here are the ATG tussles Moore had as I see it. It includes most of the black murderers row, some of the most ducked fighters of all time.

Eddie Booker (x3), Shorty Hogue (x4) Jach Chase (x4), Charley Burley, Lloyd Marhsall (x2), Jimmy Bivins (x3), Cocoa Kid, Holmean Williams (x3), Ezzard Charles (x3), Harolod Johnson (x2), Joey Maxim (x3), Bobo Olson, Rocky Marcinao, Floyd Patterson, Muhammad Ali,

I'm not 100% on some of the numbers but you get the idea.

Of course Moore lost a few (20 something if memory serves), he also had some draws. Jones' is a world class talent and an ATG but he has problems in the chin department. It seems unlikely to me that Jones' record would be much better fighting Moore's opposition to Moore's schedule. Jones resume would look something like this:

Joe Calzaghe (x3), Bernard Hopkins (x4), James Toney (x2), Nigel Benn (x4), Micheal Watson, Chris Eubank (x3), Sven Ottke, Iran Barkely, Lennox Lewis, Evander Hollyfield.

Plus some others, plus all the "contenders" he did beat.



Quote:
Toney did not deserve a rematch after losing every round. He would have got a rematch if he didnt lose to Montell Griffin and others
Perhaps. But it has still served to hurt Jones' legacy that rematches with Toney and Hopkins were never made.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 08:56 AM   #26
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,728
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotti_killer
Why do people start on about jones chin being weak, he got old fast and didn't have his chin tested in his prime so how can people say it was weak etc.
Because he got KTFO by two good punchers. Chins don't get old. Reaction time slows and workrate slows making a fighter more likely to get hit. This, as you say, is why he didn't have his chin tested in prime (although I actually think he did get cracked a few times).
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 09:02 AM   #27
rydersonthestorm
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,596
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Yes but the shot tarver hit him with was conisdered by many to be a lucky but big shot, i conisder shots like that as different as alot of boxers with great chin canbe put out by shots like that. In regards to sying chins don't get old i don't see that as accurate some fighters chin gets better with age, some fighter's chins get worse.
rydersonthestorm is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 09:08 AM   #28
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,728
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
If you look at those hall of famers, it isn't very impressive, because he came up short against the very best he faced

Fighters who dominated Moore

Ali - completely dominated and stopped

Patterson

MArciano - dominated and stopped
Yes, all thes HEAVYWEIGHT (Moore started of in the same weight division as Jones remember) beat Moore. He was old and they are all ATG fighters


Quote:
Charles - beaten 3 out of 3
Indeed. The version of Charles Moore got is arguably the best fighter who ever lived. Moore isn't that good. I wonder how Jones would do against this guy three times (probably better actually - I think he's difficult stylistily - but the fact is we'll never know. Jones never came close to this level of comp).

Quote:
Burley - The Welterweight beat him twice, knocking him out and beating him on points knocking him down 4 TIMES!!!
This has freaked me out a little bit because I have Burley fighting Moore only once. You sure they fought twice?




Quote:
Booker - knocked out, being put down 4 times. Drew the other 2 going down another 2 times

Holman Williams - 1-1
Again, ATG fighters. What series of Jones' do we compare with these efforts? Which great fighters did he take on on multiple occasions for a valid comparison? None, but he did fight Tarver three times.
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 09:10 AM   #29
McGrain
Diamond Dog
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 37,728
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotti_killer
Yes but the shot tarver hit him with was conisdered by many to be a lucky but big shot, i conisder shots like that as different as alot of boxers with great chin canbe put out by shots like that. In regards to sying chins don't get old i don't see that as accurate some fighters chin gets better with age, some fighter's chins get worse.
There are no lucky shots in boxing IMO. Are you saying that Jones had a "great chin"? Or do you think that Jones' chin was suspect?

Fighters chins can get better with age because they're less likely to get "caught cold" (unprepared for an opponents power - see Ali v Cooper, then Frazier). But which fighters chins have got worse please?
McGrain is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2007, 09:25 AM   #30
rydersonthestorm
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,596
vCash: 1000
Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

I am saying jones had a decent chin not amazing but not weak, half the people seem to make out he was glass jawed now becuase he got knocked out when he was past it, he semed to take ruiz shots ok a full blown heavyweight.
I also didn't say i conisdered the shot to be lucky, if you throw a punch and it lands it's not lucky, however against a prime roy that shot wouldn't have come within a foot of him.
You don' think that some fighters who take alot of punishment become more likely to be koed, also fighter's who where never koed then lose by ko are more likely to get koed in the future?
I conisder having a good chin as much about mentality as well as physcial ability.
rydersonthestorm is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013