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View Poll Results: How many matches would Archie Moore win vs the listed ten all time greats at 175 ?
1 0 0%
2 1 2.78%
3 0 0%
4 2 5.56%
5 8 22.22%
6 9 25.00%
7 8 22.22%
8 6 16.67%
9 2 5.56%
10 0 0%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-03-2007, 09:30 AM   #31
McGrain
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotti_killer
I am saying jones had a decent chin not amazing but not weak.
I agree with this surmise. But it becomes an issue when you're in with the very best, especially the very best punchers.

Quote:
I also didn't say i conisdered the shot to be lucky, if you throw a punch and it lands it's not lucky, however against a prime roy that shot wouldn't have come within a foot of him.
I also tend to agree with this, although I'm sure you would agree that Tarver is no ATG.

Quote:
You don' think that some fighters who take alot of punishment become more likely to be koed, also fighter's who where never koed then lose by ko are more likely to get koed in the future?
Yes and yes, but it tends to be because of diminishing returns on training and deterioration of reflexes. It is possible for a fighter to be brain damaged and more susceptable to punches, but I don't think this was the case with Roy.

Quote:
I conisder having a good chin as much about mentality as well as physcial ability.
Only in so much as a fighter might not be training as hard as he should have been due to a lack of mental commitment during his preperation, which is probably the single most common factor you'll enocunter in surprise loses.
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Old 10-03-2007, 09:34 AM   #32
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

I think it was to do with his reflexs and his mentality against johnson, before he lost to tarver he conisdered himself unbeatable and a loss like that damages any fighters confidence and i think makes him more likely to be koed. To be fair though we tend to pretty much agree with most points so far.
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:16 AM   #33
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
My friend - coming from a guy who's defending Jones' record that is pretty rich. Here are the ATG tussles Moore had as I see it. It includes most of the black murderers row, some of the most ducked fighters of all time.

Eddie Booker (x3), Shorty Hogue (x4) Jach Chase (x4), Charley Burley, Lloyd Marhsall (x2), Jimmy Bivins (x3), Cocoa Kid, Holmean Williams (x3), Ezzard Charles (x3), Harolod Johnson (x2), Joey Maxim (x3), Bobo Olson, Rocky Marcinao, Floyd Patterson, Muhammad Ali,

I'm not 100% on some of the numbers but you get the idea. .
Lets compare RJJs comp to Moores black murderers row & other comp because Moores isn't much better if at all. I've compared the most comparable opponents on their respective records:

Charles-BHOPs
Maxim-Virgil Hill
Harold Johnson-Tarver
Bobo Olsen-Reggie Johnson
Bivins-McCallum
Burley-Trinidad
Holman Williams - Griffin
Valdes-Ruiz
Cocoa Kid-Pazienza
Marshall - Gonzalez
Chase -Hall/Harding
Williams-Woods/Mallinger

As mentioned Moore lost against the best fighters he faced. The black murderers row are excellent as a group but so are RJJ, Toney BHOPs, McCallum, Tarver, Virgil Hill, Trinidad

RJJs legacy isn't affected in the slightest for not getting rematches with Toney or RJJ. BHOPs ducked the rematch for years and he won every round against Toney whos career proceeded to take a nose dive
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:26 AM   #34
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

[quote=PowerPuncher]


Quote:
Charles-BHOPs
Charles is an ATG LHW, and all time p4p #1 contender. BHOP is an all time great MW. Not a good comparison for roy.

Quote:
Harold Johnson-Tarver
Bivins-McCallum
Clear water in terms of quality in favour of Archie.

Quote:
Burley-Trinidad
Burley took out contenders at LHW and numerous ATG MW's, and stopped at least two HW's. Trinidad failed miserabley at MW. This is not a good comparison for Roy.

Quote:
Holman Williams - Griffin
Holman Williams is, in my opinion, one of the greatest fighters ever to draw breath. Griffin really isn't. Not a good comparison for Roy.

Quote:
Cocoa Kid-Pazienza
Marshall - Gonzalez
Chase -Hall/Harding
These are all really bad comparisons in terms of quality in my opinion. Cocoa Kid, Marshall, Chase, these are some of the most avoided, feared fighters in history. The guys on the other end of the see-saw aren't even in the class of the men who ducked these guys.

Quote:
As mentioned Moore lost against the best fighters he faced.
As did Wills. Moore fought at a consistantly higher level than Roy, fought more frequently than Roy, fought to a more advance age than Roy has jet reached. I wonder if there is any point in his career where he would have lost 2/3 to Tarver.

Quote:
RJJs legacy isn't affected in the slightest for not getting rematches with Toney or RJJ. BHOPs ducked the rematch for years and he won every round against Toney whos career proceeded to take a nose dive
I disagree. The fact that he didn't rematch either of those guys is often raised on the forums and in print. That's as clear an inditment of his decision not to rematch as one can find.

I like Jones. I like watching him fight, I rate him. I pick him H2H over some of my favourite fighters (including my very favourite, Charley Burley), but the comparison of Moore's competition to Roy's is an absolute non-starter.
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:28 AM   #35
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
There are no lucky shots in boxing IMO. Are you saying that Jones had a "great chin"? Or do you think that Jones' chin was suspect?

Fighters chins can get better with age because they're less likely to get "caught cold" (unprepared for an opponents power - see Ali v Cooper, then Frazier). But which fighters chins have got worse please?
Fighters do lose their chin and punch resistance with age, partly due to being easier to tag with BIG shots. See RJJs rival Michalczewski as he got ko'd by Tiozzo in his last fight

Regardless of that its unlikely RJJ would take many of Moores shots. RJJ will land easier and Moore showed a dodgy chin in his prime
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:35 AM   #36
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Fighters do lose their chin and punch resistance with age, partly due to being easier to tag with BIG shots.
Yeah, that's basically what I said, the easier to tag with BIG shots bit anyway.

Quote:
Michalczewski
I can never spell this guys name, that's why I didn't put him in the Jones imagined resume.

Quote:
Regardless of that its unlikely RJJ would take many of Moores shots. RJJ will land easier and Moore showed a dodgy chin in his prime
The KO king would be rellying upon smarts to slow the action down and bring Jones onto his punches. He was the absolute master at this. Interesting intangibles for this fight. The longer it goes the better for Moore.
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:40 AM   #37
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

[quote=McGrain]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
1. Charles is an ATG LHW, and all time p4p #1 contender. BHOP is an all time great MW. Not a good comparison for roy.

2. Clear water in terms of quality in favour of Archie. (Harold Johnson-Tarver, Bivins-McCallum)

3. Burley took out contenders at LHW and numerous ATG MW's, and stopped at least two HW's. Trinidad failed miserabley at MW. This is not a good comparison for Roy.

4. Holman Williams is, in my opinion, one of the greatest fighters ever to draw breath. Griffin really isn't. Not a good comparison for Roy.

5. These are all really bad comparisons in terms of quality in my opinion. Cocoa Kid, Marshall, Chase, these are some of the most avoided, feared fighters in history. The guys on the other end of the see-saw aren't even in the class of the men who ducked these guys.

6. As did Wills. Moore fought at a consistantly higher level than Roy, fought more frequently than Roy, fought to a more advance age than Roy has jet reached. I wonder if there is any point in his career where he would have lost 2/3 to Tarver.
..
1. 2 elite fighters not much seperation, RJJ beat BHOPs at 160. Moore got whooped 3 times by Charles

2. I don't see how its clear water, McCallum is the best P4P & prime for prime from those by far. Bivins was pretty much shot when Moore got to him and coming off numerous losses. Tarver has as good wins as either

3. Trinidad and Burley are both natural Welters. AND Moore lost BOTH fights to Burley- no credit for this

4. Better yes, Griffin was top draw

5. Cocoa Kid was about 50, a natural lightweight and on a losing streak when Moore got to him. Thats why I compared him to the younger ex-lightweight in Paziana - its about as impressive as RJJ fighting Duran who Paziana beat

6. Moore lost series to far inferior fighters to a Prime Tarver. Moore obviously has better longevity than RJJ but prime for prime Moore isn't in RJJs league. Yes Moore fought more often. Quantity does not equal Quality.

Moore was basically a consistantly very good fighter. However he isn't top30 P4P of all time and the fact many have him in the top 15 of all time is laughable. Prime for prime RJJ would beat him and look relatively easy doing it.
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Old 10-03-2007, 10:52 AM   #38
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Harold Johnson was a fair bit better than anyone Jones faced.
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Old 10-03-2007, 11:08 AM   #39
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
1. 2 elite fighters not much seperation, RJJ beat BHOPs at 160. Moore got whooped 3 times by Charles
Peak Charles would probably beat B-Hop 10/10 what with being a natrally bigger sharp shooting combination puncher - so I'll disagree with you about "not much seperation". The win/loss diferetial makes for interesting reading though.

Quote:
2. I don't see how its clear water, McCallum is the best P4P & prime for prime from those by far. Bivins was pretty much shot when Moore got to him and coming off numerous losses. Tarver has as good wins as either
Moore's series with Bivins started when Bivins was at peak and ended when Bivins was past his peak. So "pretty much shot" is stretching things a bit.

Quote:
3. Trinidad and Burley are both natural Welters. AND Moore lost BOTH fights to Burley- no credit for this
Are you using Boxrec for Burley's record? I really am sure that Moore and Burley didn't fight twice.

Yes both are natural welters. Yes Burley is by far the better fighter. If we're comparing Jones' competition to Moore's (as opposed to assigning credit for wins in relation to your original claim about Moore's competition) it's another one where Moore comes of well.

Quote:
4. Better yes, Griffin was top draw
I'm not getting you. You think Griffin was better than Holman Williams?

Quote:
5. Cocoa Kid was about 50, a natural lightweight and on a losing streak when Moore got to him. Thats why I compared him to the younger ex-lightweight in Paziana - its about as impressive as RJJ fighting Duran who Paziana beat
Cocoa was coming to the end of his career for sure. But he has a decision win right before or right after the Moore fight (I forget), same year for sure. This proves he was still mixing in ATG comp, and winning, when Moore beat him. Was Paziana doing so when Jones got him?

Quote:
6. Moore lost series to far inferior fighters to a Prime Tarver.
Who?!

Quote:
However he isn't top30 P4P of all time and the fact many have him in the top 15 of all time is laughable.
Some, of course, have him top 5.

Quote:
Prime for prime RJJ would beat him and look relatively easy doing it.
A bold bold claim given that the only man who made it look easy was Burley (one of thebest ever) and Charles the first time (one of the best ever).
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Old 10-03-2007, 11:12 AM   #40
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

I fancy jones to beat him but it would be far from an easy night, i don't think most people would have an easy time with moore.
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Old 10-03-2007, 12:50 PM   #41
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Lets compare RJJs comp to Moores black murderers row & other comp because Moores isn't much better if at all. I've compared the most comparable opponents on their respective records:

Charles-BHOPs
Maxim-Virgil Hill
Harold Johnson-Tarver
Bobo Olsen-Reggie Johnson
Bivins-McCallum
Burley-Trinidad
Holman Williams - Griffin
Valdes-Ruiz
Cocoa Kid-Pazienza
Marshall - Gonzalez
Chase -Hall/Harding
Williams-Woods/Mallinger

As mentioned Moore lost against the best fighters he faced. The black murderers row are excellent as a group but so are RJJ, Toney BHOPs, McCallum, Tarver, Virgil Hill, Trinidad

RJJs legacy isn't affected in the slightest for not getting rematches with Toney or RJJ. BHOPs ducked the rematch for years and he won every round against Toney whos career proceeded to take a nose dive
Interesting stuff. Roy Jones seems a bit under rated by modern historians. Some Historians donít see Jones as a top ten all time great at 175 pounds. I do. Those who do not point to Jones two one-punch KO losses, and his problem with substance abuse.

Jones was not only boxing best pound for pound fighter for a while, he was one heck of a fight manager. Jones picked too many low risk average legacy reward type of fights.

I do think Moore's competition at 160 and 175 was superior to Jones, however as you pointed out Moore was hit or miss vs the best he fought at this weight, while Jones was a winner nearly ever time until old age caught up to him.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:09 PM   #42
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

I'm glad most think spinks would beat him cuz IMO, he would.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:26 PM   #43
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

I think Charles and Jones would beat him. Spinks would be 50/50. Other than that he beats the rest.
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Old 10-03-2007, 06:36 PM   #44
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

cant belive you guys dont give Loughran much of a chance. Loughran has speed and a hard chin over Archie, Tommy is going to be a HARD man to catch. I make that fight 50 50 about. Loughran had more than a jab and speed. He was good at countering, was a great inside fighter as he show vs Walker, he was as close to Gene Tunney as one man can be imo.
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Old 10-03-2007, 07:59 PM   #45
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Default Re: How many does Archie Moore win vs the following ten fighters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
1. Peak Charles would probably beat B-Hop 10/10 what with being a natrally bigger sharp shooting combination puncher - so I'll disagree with you about "not much seperation". The win/loss diferetial makes for interesting reading though.

2. Moore's series with Bivins started when Bivins was at peak and ended when Bivins was past his peak. So "pretty much shot" is stretching things a bit.

3. Are you using Boxrec for Burley's record? I really am sure that Moore and Burley didn't fight twice.

4. Yes both are natural welters. Yes Burley is by far the better fighter. If we're comparing Jones' competition to Moore's (as opposed to assigning credit for wins in relation to your original claim about Moore's competition) it's another one where Moore comes of well.

5. I'm not getting you. You think Griffin was better than Holman Williams?

6. Cocoa was coming to the end of his career for sure. But he has a decision win right before or right after the Moore fight (I forget), same year for sure. This proves he was still mixing in ATG comp, and winning, when Moore beat him. Was Paziana doing so when Jones got him?

7. Moore lost series to far inferior fighters to a Prime Tarver. Who?!

8. Some, of course, have him top 5.

9. A bold bold claim given that the only man who made it look easy was Burley (one of thebest ever) and Charles the first time (one of the best ever).
1. Yes I'd pick Charles, but 10 out of 10? They're both great fighters (the same size - BHOPs started at 175, Charles started at 160). THE DIFFERENCE - RJJ won Moore lost 3times

2. Bivins started his bad losing streak before Moore beat him. Before that he was on a massive winnign streak. Doesn't that indicate he got Bivins at the right time?

3. OOPS my mistake

4. Maybe he is the better fighter, I find the thought of RJJ losing to any welter hard to fathom. SRR been an exception and I'd still pick RJJ

5. No, I'm saying hes good comp

6. It was Cocoas 7th loss in 12 months.

7. Shorty Hogue for 1

8. Better than SRR, Charles, Grebb, Armstrong, SRL? He shouldn't be ahead of Marciano - they both weighed the same.

9. Well the similarly sized and styled Patterson beat Moore very comprehensively. There wasn't any fighter quite like RJJ - no one else beat the similar Toney that emphatically either.
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