Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

[OLD FOGEY]

There is a long debate on another thread with various opinions of the relative power of a big man such as Lennox Lewis against a relatively small heavyweight such as Dempsey or Marciano. I did a little study comparing Marciano to Lewis, as the records of each are complete. To judge the p4p as well as the absolute punching power of the two men, I compared Marciano's HEAVIEST ten opponents with Lewis LIGHTEST ten opponents, and the weights worked out pretty close.

Lennox Lewis--ten lightest opponents and results
1. Bruce Johnson (192 lbs) TKO 2 record-5-10-1
2. Melvin Epps (194 lbs) DQ 2 record-14-19-1
3. Greg Gorrell (202 lbs) TKO 5--record 21-7
4. Jean Chanet (206 lbs) TKO 6--record 24-10
5. Mike Dixon (207 lbs) TKO 4--record 10-5
6. Dan Murphy (211 lbs) TKO 6--record 25-4-1
7. Zeljko Mirovic (214 lbs) W 12--record 27-0
8. Al Malcolm (215 lbs) TKO 2--record 11-12-1
9. Mike Weaver (215 lbs) TKO 6--record 35-15-1
10. Evander Holyfield (215 lbs) D 12--record 36-3

Average weigh 207 lbs (w/o lightest man 209.3 lbs)
Total record of opposition 208-85-5 71% winning %
Lennox Lewis' record 9-0-1 with 7 knockouts
average rounds fought 5.7
Lewis' average weight for 10 bouts-232 lbs
25 lb advantage per man

Rocky Marciano-ten heaviest opponents and results
1. Jerry Jackson (254 lbs) KO 1--record 2-1
2. Bill Wilson (229 lbs) TKO 1--record 42-11-2
3. Johnny Shkor (220 lbs) TKO 6--record 29-18-2
4. Joe Louis (213 lbs) TKO 8--record 68-2
5. Pat Connolly (213 lbs) KO 1--record 8-5
6. Eldridge Eatman (207 lbs) TKO 3--record 15-19-3
7. Bill Hardeman (206 lbs) KO 1--record 1-4
8. Don Cockell (205 lbs) TKO 9--record 66-11-1
9. Artie Donato (201 lbs) KO 1--record 9-6
10. Lee Savold (200 lbs) TKO 6--record 93-39-3

Average weight 215 lbs (w/o heaviest man 209.4 lbs)
Total record of opposition 333-116-11 74% winning %
Rocky Marciano's record 10-0-0 with 10 knockouts
Average rounds fought 3.7
Rocky Marciano's average weight for 10 bouts-186 lbs
29 lb average disadvantage against each opponent.

Comment--Marciano is clearly a ton better as a p4p puncher, but in fact the evidence points to Marciano being the harder puncher absolutely.

[Luigi1985]

Marciano is today for some unknown reasons definitely one of the most hated fighters, haters don´t look at facts or things like that, they use their "logical" common sense...

[rydersonthestorm]

This is a poor comparison if ever i saw one, lennox lewis was not a straight up slugger like marciano and alot of the time boxed, so obviously his ko perecentage might be lower. Also your record of marciano fighter's having a greater win% is well padded by joe louis (who was more than past it) and don cockell, take out those two guys and the percentage looks a hell opf alot different. Also take into account the fact that most boxer in lewis era where alot heavier than the lightest guys he fought and look at his ko wins there, does marciano ko the big guys as well as lewis i very much doubt it. You can fit figures like this to make anyone look good.

[Luigi1985]

Originally Posted by hotti_killer

This is a poor comparison if ever i saw one, lennox lewis was not a straight up slugger like marciano and alot of the time boxed, so obviously his ko perecentage might be lower. Also your record of marciano fighter's having a greater win% is well padded by joe louis (who was more than past it) and don cockell, take out those two guys and the percentage looks a hell opf alot different. Also take into account the fact that most boxer in lewis era where alot heavier than the lightest guys he fought and look at his ko wins there, does marciano ko the big guys as well as lewis i very much doubt it. You can fit figures like this to make anyone look good.

That´s normal. The humans always grow, in Marciano´s time 5´10 was pretty big, compared to today it would be at least 6´0 or so, compare the stats from the average-size and average- weight of the humans today and from Rocky´s time...

[roxyboxy]

it's a pretty interesting comparison and i admire the statistical look. im not sure yet if i agree that the conclusion is that strongly correlated with the premise...

[rydersonthestorm]

Yes but he is not saying p4p so you need to see how marciano fares aginst the bigger guys not just the small ones otherwise it is a worthless comparison.

[roxyboxy]

Originally Posted by Luigi1985

That´s normal. The humans always grow, in Marciano´s time 5´10 was pretty big, compared to today it would be at least 6´0 or so, compare the stats from the average-size and average- weight of the humans today and from Rocky´s time...

Can you explain further? Are you saying that you think humans are growing in size? that the species has gotten that much bigger in the last 50 years? or are you saying that the average size of the HW boxer is increasing?

[Luigi1985]

Originally Posted by hotti_killer

Yes but he is not saying p4p so you need to see how marciano fares aginst the bigger guys not just the small ones otherwise it is a worthless comparison.

How will you do that? I mean, in ca. 50 years, when you look at how A. Schwarzenegger looked, and at an average bodybuilder of this days, Arnold also doesn´t look that great, but than we must look/ research, etc. You must that judge a bit p4p, but to say Lewis was a better puncher, because he fought bigger and heavier opposition is a bit freaky...

[Luigi1985]

Originally Posted by roxyboxy

Can you explain further? Are you saying that you think humans are growing in size? that the species has gotten that much bigger in the last 50 years? or are you saying that the average size of the HW boxer is increasing?

I actually meant both, but of course the HW´s in boxing. Back in that days, 6´3 was pretty big, today at HW scene it´s normal...

[rydersonthestorm]

Not really it is gernerally harder to ko a bigger man, not in all cases. A good example of this is when tyson a great puncher lost his speed he couldn't dent big heavyweight like danny williams and kevin mcbride. The ts stated that marciano was a harder hitter than lewis overall not p4p so you can't use p4p as a comparison becuase it is not valid. The whole point is that marciano never foguht guys the size that lewis did so to say that he could punch harder by using smaller guys is a silly comparison and brings no real point or accuracy, it is infact a very flawed concept.

[Mendoza]

Lewis hit harder. Rocky threw more punches and pressed for the knockout more often.

[OLD FOGEY]

Originally Posted by hotti_killer

This is a poor comparison if ever i saw one, lennox lewis was not a straight up slugger like marciano and alot of the time boxed, so obviously his ko perecentage might be lower. Also your record of marciano fighter's having a greater win% is well padded by joe louis (who was more than past it) and don cockell, take out those two guys and the percentage looks a hell opf alot different. Also take into account the fact that most boxer in lewis era where alot heavier than the lightest guys he fought and look at his ko wins there, does marciano ko the big guys as well as lewis i very much doubt it. You can fit figures like this to make anyone look good.

Okay Joe Louis was 37, but so was Holyfield, and Weaver was 40. Age cuts both ways. So do the outstanding records. Don't forget, Lewis has three fighters with losing records in this group, but one guy who was undefeated. He had to up the percentages.

I can not compare what is not in existance. I took Marciano's top ten weights. But at least the question should be raised about why Lewis did not perform better against men so much smaller.
I really wonder how you can figure out a way to criticize Marciano against heavier men when he knocked out the biggest ten men he fought, giving away an average of 29 pounds, and scoring five first round knockouts.

[roxyboxy]

Originally Posted by Luigi1985

I actually meant both, but of course the HW´s in boxing. Back in that days, 6´3 was pretty big, today at HW scene it´s normal...

Well, from an evolutionary perspective, it is true that humans are getting taller, but not in a marked way in the timeframe we're discussing, so I think that should be ruled out.

If you're talking about average size as a result of muscle mass, that is likely true. The science of muscle hypertrophy has definitely progressed over the last 50 years, and athletes with good nutritionists and trainers can more readily adapt their bodies than ever.

That said, what may ultimately be interesting is that fast-twitch fibers are NOT the ones that contribute to hypertrophy (e.g., "getting bigger"). When people train a muscle to grow, it is the slow-twitch fiber that grows bigger. Training a fast-twitch fiber involves a totally different recruitment and results in minimal hypertrophy, even in the trained muscle! This could possibly suggest that while some of these athletes have more static strength upon achieving muscle growth, their dynamic strength is largely hereditary and stays within a very strict tolerance!

You cannot, after all, make a sprinter out of a naturally slow person, no matter the training. And a naturally fast person, even out of shape, is always faster.

To me, all of this suggests that explosive strength -- the core component of punching power -- does not necessarily change from year to year and athlete to athlete. That is to say, whatever makes a boxer a great puncher at 200 pounds is likely not enhanced by a musculature that pushes him to 220.

I realize we're discussing a single element of boxing. Who is to say, however, that the mental confidence gained by 220 does not ultimately make a puncher that much more confident in changing his style!

[rydersonthestorm]

lol, if you call winning all those fights a bad perfomance whats a good one. Also lewis is a boxer puncher, not a brawler puncher. Does marcaino smoke the likes og golota,grant,ruddock in a matter of minutes. Do the likes of walcott and charles last out for 13 and 15 rounds aginst lewis ??
Also lewis was 35 when he fought holyfiled hardly young either when maricano retired at 32, fighitng only in his peak years, he was 28 when he beat louis so thats 9 years difference rather than 2 in the lewis holyfield case.
I say p4p marciano was the betetr puncher but i think it is bordering on insane to think he hit harder than lewis if your not talking p4p.

[Luigi1985]

Originally Posted by hotti_killer

lol, if you call winning all those fights a bad perfomance whats a good one. Also lewis is a boxer puncher, not a brawler puncher. Does marcaino smoke the likes og golota,grant,ruddock in a matter of minutes. Do the likes of walcott and charles last out for 13 and 15 rounds aginst lewis ??
Also lewis was 35 when he fought holyfiled hardly young either when maricano retired at 32, fighitng only in his peak years, he was 28 when he beat louis so thats 9 years difference rather than 2 in the lewis holyfield case.
I say p4p marciano was the betetr puncher but i think it is bordering on insane to think he hit harder than lewis if your not talking p4p.

That´s because Golota and Ruddock are bumbs compared to ATG´s like Charles and Walcot. Just because they´re bigger, doesn´t automatically mean that they were better.