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Old 10-01-2007, 10:08 AM   #1
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Default The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

Beat Every man he faced avenging all his losses
Always

3 Top 10 HWs of all time

Holyfield - slightly past prime but Lewis was also past his physical prime at 33 and there was only a 3year age gap. Lewis completely dominated. Holyfield was fresh of beating Tyson & Moorer, which are 2 of his best wins. Holyfield trained for this fight like a demon and was in terrific shape showing great stamina.

Tyson - Past prime but Lennox was the older man and also past his prime at 36, but still showed flashes of his brilliance against Golota and retained his speed and power but was completely dominated

Bowe - KO'd Bowe in the Olympics, Bowe blatantly ducked him as a champ

Other Great Wins

Golota - VERY UNDERATED WIN. Many rated Golota as NO1 in the world after he twice dominated Bowe. This is important, Golota was considered the best in the world at this time and had chased the ATG BOwe into retirement. Result - 1st round KO

Vitali - Vitali went on to be considered the man in the division. Throughout his career he lost very few rounds, had a Lewis was old at 37yo past his prime, looking slow, overweight and lacking stamina. Lennox was also training for an easy defense against Johnson. Lennox pulled off a stoppage win and came back from being hurt.

Rudduck - The man who just went 19rounds with a near prime Tyson compeltely decapitated in 2 rounds.

Rahman 2 - after it seemed a 35yo Lennox was past prime. He dominated and scored a stunning KO

Briggs - The linear champion destroyed

Grant - the 'heir aparent', big powerful with decent skills. Destroyed by Lennox and probably never the same again.

Other Excellent Wins

Bruno - future WBC Champ, massive power (made iron chinned McCall go into a shell after tasting it), great jab, Lennox had to turn the fight around and did so.

Morrison - massive power, near prime, fresh of beating Foreman and Rudduck, top5 HW, systematically outboxed and destroyed

Akiwande - huge HW, top10 HW, decent skills, DQ'ed for holding which was brought about from fear of Lennoxs power

Mason - 35-0, no5 in the world, Lennox finnished his career

Tucker - 49-1, still a top 10 HW in a strong division having recently beaten prime McCall and Norris, his only loss to a prime Tyson, completely dominated by Lennox being knocked down multiple times

McCall 2 - avenging his loss, yes McCall may not have been at his best but only started crying after it was onbvious it would be a long painful night.

Mercer - a tough style match up against a top6 HW in the world. Lennox toughed out a win when he was really up against it. Biased Americans claim Mercer won, but Lennox won 6 rounds clearly in the 10 round s****.

Total Number of Champions (Including Linear & WBO) - 14

Biggest HWs of all time

From 6'3-6'7 (220-250) - Vitali Klitchko, Akiwande, Golota, Bruno, Biggs, Rudduck, Tucker, Bruno, Grant, Briggs

Not only tall but most were muscular beasts that could box and had high workrates. They would make Willard look like a wimp.

Biggest Punchers of all time

Tua, Tyson, Vitali, Rudduck, Morrison, Rahman, McCall were massive punchers and a few are top10 of all time powerwise

Highest Workrates of all time

Tua set punchstat record against Ibeauchi Holyfield had a very high workrate
Vitali threw a huge amount of punches per round.
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:19 AM   #2
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

PART 2 - Lennox Greatest Skills of All Time

Power - maybe the hardest hitter of all time? Took out many many durable opponents with 1 shot and beat many top HWs in the first round.

Size and Strength - All Lennoxs opponents commented on his strength, he was 6'5 with a huge arm span.

Technique - punching technique was perfect and footwork was excellent

Right Hand - best of all time, for power, reach, technique - amazing right

Uppercut - amazing destructive uppercut, few ever through it better at HW and Lennoxs height made it all the more effective

Jab - very good and used to brilliant effect, not as good as Holmes but better than most HWs. Completely controlled most opponents

Hooks - Lennox didnt see the need to engage with the hook and risk eating an opponents hook. He didnt use it very often but when he threw it, it was destructive and a KO blow

Ring Strategy - usually excellent, Lennox would out think his opponent, not take unnessary risks, outbox,

Defense - Lennox had a very tight defense

Chin - Lennox had a Great Chin - he took some of the biggest shots in HW history without going down, see this video:
[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Speed - excellent speed for a big man

Workrate/Stamina - very good stamina for such a big man, possibly a slight weakness but it was still excellent
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Old 10-01-2007, 10:55 AM   #3
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

Good points but what are you on about with bowe being a top ten heavy, he in no way is a top ten heavyweight on the all times list and lewis didn't fight him apart from in the olympics (so you can't really count it). I think lewis match's up well with every other heavyweight and has the size and skill to beat any top 10 fighter on a good night but i would still have to put him behind ali and louis in an all time list.
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Old 10-01-2007, 11:04 AM   #4
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

Bowe isnt a top 10 HW for me, I think I had him around 16 BUT many have him in their top10s
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Old 10-01-2007, 11:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

I accpet that some people might have him in their top ten, but running scared from lewis and the loss to evander as well as not exactly fighting and beating the top guys at the time puts him quite far away from the top ten in my book, infact i would struggle to have him above top 20. He had the talent to be top ten but didn't do enough with it in my book. In regards to your other points i think you make a good arguement for lewis to be goat but with ali#''s resume and wins and joe louis overall skillset i still have him on number 3 on my list.
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Old 10-01-2007, 01:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

Bowe is a pure waste of talent. I do not belive that Bowe's loss in the Olymmpic counts as Lewis's professional legacy as Bowe was far less experienced, but Bowe did duck him
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Old 10-01-2007, 01:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

Wait, you're saying Lewis is the greatest heavyweight of all time?

Not even remotely close. There are just too many points above to pick apart.
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Old 10-01-2007, 02:16 PM   #8
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by roxyboxy
Wait, you're saying Lewis is the greatest heavyweight of all time?

Not even remotely close. There are just too many points above to pick apart.
Please try, welcome to the forum
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Old 10-01-2007, 02:18 PM   #9
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmt
Bowe is a pure waste of talent. I do not belive that Bowe's loss in the Olymmpic counts as Lewis's professional legacy as Bowe was far less experienced, but Bowe did duck him
Lewis-Bowe Olympic Final is the only thing we have to go on because of the duck. 2 greats in an olympic final is something good to see. Bowe had fantastic ability, but there are so many who could have been greats had they dedicated themselves, ie, Buster Douglas
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Old 10-01-2007, 02:28 PM   #10
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

i have him in my top 10, great fighter
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Old 10-01-2007, 02:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

Ok, here are some thoughts. I have some work to do, but this'll be a welcome break.

While I think there's some good categorical thinking in it, your ****ysis suffers from a lack of 1. historical perspective and 2. proportionality in argument. If I were to rephrase the argument, I'd call it "Lewis: GOAT in the last 10 years", which of course isn't "All Time".

I always admired Lewis for his ability to speak thoughtfully, for his mastery of boxing, and for his natural sportsmanship. He was a truly great boxer who held his own time and again against some of the better heavyweights in his era. One of the main problems is that "heavyweights of his era" don't include the true all-time greats, like Ali, Louis, Moore. But that's just the relatively modern era. What about Jim Jeffries and Dempsey? Marciano would have given him a vicious run.

The interesting aspect to the debate is probably a comparison of the great boxers in the era. To say that the boxers of the 90s could have competed with the boxers of the 70s is a compelling twist, and I do not think they can.

So, take the argument a step further. Who is the greatest heavyweight in each decade? What happens when a Dempsey fights a Lewis? Or when Joe Louis steps into the ring with Lewis?

Sometimes the "would would win out of 10 times" model helps the imagination.

For me, the GOAT is a tossup between Ali and Louis. To me, you simply cannot compare the ranks in those two eras with the ranked contenders of Lewis's. They were much, much better. I don't put Bowe in the same class, for example.

My GOAT's are Joe Louis, Dempsey, and Ali.

So, here's my off-the-cuff thinking in a "best of 10" model versus Lewis:
GOAT 1: Joe Louis v. Lewis, best of of 10: Louis wins 8
GOAT 2: Ali v. Lewis, best of 10: Ali wins 7
Dempsey v. Lewis, best of 10: Dempsey wins 6
Moore v. Lewis, best of 10: split w/ wildcard going to Lewis
Marciano. Lewis, best of 10: split
Foreman v. Lewis, best of 10: in primes, edge to Foreman
Tyson v. Lewis, best of 10: in their primes, you tell me...
Liston v. Lewis, best of 10: Liston wins 6
Frazier v. Lewis, best of 10: Fraziers wins 6

My conclusion:
1. Here's my list of heavyweights definitely more deserving of GOAT than Lewis (in partial order):
a. Ali
b. Joe Louis
c. Jack Dempsey
d. Jack Johnson, but the difference in eras is very problematic.

2. Here's my list of heavyweights that were simply better than Lewis, but not deserving of GOAT status (in no order):
a. Foreman
b. Marciano
c. Frazier
d. Liston
e. Jeffries
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Old 10-01-2007, 02:58 PM   #12
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

I can certainly see a good argument for Lewis being a top 5 all time great with his comp list and overall acheivements, but GOAT is being oftly generous.

For one thing, 44 pro fights is not that many when you compare him to many of his peers at the top. In addition, having losses to some of the men that he did and a controversial win over a 35 year old Ray Mercer, who hadn't won a fight nearly 3 years, hurts him as well. He definately deserves to be around #3 or #4, but #1 is a bit out of reach.
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Old 10-01-2007, 03:42 PM   #13
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by roxyboxy
1a. Ali
1b. Joe Louis
1c. Jack Dempsey
1d. Jack Johnson, but the difference in eras is very problematic.

2. my list of heavyweights that were simply better than Lewis, but not deserving of GOAT status
(in no order):

a. Foreman
b. Marciano
c. Frazier
d. Liston
e. Jeffries
Initially I'll look at their legacies

1A. Ali - good pick BUT had problems with certain styles

1B. Louis - great fighter, poor comp, and fought much smaller men.

1C. Dempsey - TERRIBLE COMPETITION. 1 of the worst levels of competition of any great HW champ, he also didnt fight the best fighters of his era

1D. Johnson - decent comp but all very small men and basically middleweights and light heavyweights. He struggled allot too

2A. Foreman - Only held his title for 3fights and couldn't deal with boxer and movers to save his life. Both an Old Ali and Jimmy Young beat him in his prime and he went life and death with

2B. Marciano - took advantage of a weak era and older fighters. He only had title fights against 5 fighters. Getting Kd'ed by old Walcott and old light heavyweight Moore and arguably losing to LaStarza first time takes away from.

2C. Frazier - fought 2 ATGs 5 times in Ali and Foreman. He lost 4 of those contests. He also had a problem with punchers.

2D. Liston - fought 1 ATG and lost miserably to Ali twice.

2E - Jeffries - limited ability and ducked Jack Johnson
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Old 10-01-2007, 03:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by roxyboxy
GOAT 1: Joe Louis v. Lewis, best of of 10: Louis wins 8
GOAT 2: Ali v. Lewis, best of 10: Ali wins 7
Dempsey v. Lewis, best of 10: Dempsey wins 6
Moore v. Lewis, best of 10: split w/ wildcard going to Lewis
Marciano. Lewis, best of 10: split
Foreman v. Lewis, best of 10: in primes, edge to Foreman
Tyson v. Lewis, best of 10: in their primes, you tell me...
Liston v. Lewis, best of 10: Liston wins 6
Frazier v. Lewis, best of 10: Fraziers wins 6
Joe Louis v. Lewis - tough 1, 7-3 to Lennox Lewis - Louis was always open to right hands and Lennox had maybe the best Straight Right in history. Louis did well against big men but Lewis was great at dominating smaller men with his jab and range.

Ali-Lewis - 5-5 - Ali had problems with jabs and 1-2s and Lennoxs was excellent. Ali did find a way to win and would counter beautifully. 10 very close fights, going either way.

Dempsey-Lennox - Lennox wins 9-1 - Lennox was very good at dealing with smaller men and Dempsey would lounge in taking massive counters. I think dempsey may pull off 1 KO with his combo of speed and power but be ko'd most times.

Marciano-Lennox - Lennox 10-0 - Marciano is made for Lewis. Small, easy to hit, weaker, not the best chin. If Moore/Walcott kd Marciano then Lewis knocks him out 10 out of 10

Foreman-Lennox - Lennox 8-2 - Lennox just needs to box and move against the crude Foreman who had problems with men who could box. Foreman was a beast and may be able to pull of a couple of upset KOs if they fought 10 times

Tyson-Lewis - 7-3 Tyson - very hard to pick and could go either way. Prime Tysons speed, relentlessness, power and combinations would shift the balance in his favour but Lennox could possibly dominate the way there fight went

Liston-Lewis - 9-1 Lennox - Lennox is far the better boxer, far faster, better technician, bigger, stronger and hit harder. Liston was a formidable foe and may be able to pull off 1 lucky KO if they fought 10 times

Frazier - Lennox - 10-0 Lennox - Frazier got pummelled by Foreman twice and Lennox would do the exact same thing and nto only that he could also outbox and punnish him.

Did you actually put Archie Moore in with Lennox Lewis? 10-0 to Lennox all by early KOs
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Old 10-01-2007, 03:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: The case for Lennox Lewis being GOAT

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Joe Louis v. Lewis - tough 1, 7-3 to Lennox Lewis - Louis was always open to right hands and Lennox had maybe the best Straight Right in history. Louis did well against big men but Lewis was great at dominating smaller men with his jab and range.

Ali-Lewis - 5-5 - Ali had problems with jabs and 1-2s and Lennoxs was excellent. Ali did find a way to win and would counter beautifully. 10 very close fights, going either way.

Dempsey-Lennox - Lennox wins 9-1 - Lennox was very good at dealing with smaller men and Dempsey would lounge in taking massive counters. I think dempsey may pull off 1 KO with his combo of speed and power but be ko'd most times.

Marciano-Lennox - Lennox 10-0 - Marciano is made for Lewis. Small, easy to hit, weaker, not the best chin. If Moore/Walcott kd Marciano then Lewis knocks him out 10 out of 10

Foreman-Lennox - Lennox 8-2 - Lennox just needs to box and move against the crude Foreman who had problems with men who could box. Foreman was a beast and may be able to pull of a couple of upset KOs if they fought 10 times

Tyson-Lewis - 7-3 Tyson - very hard to pick and could go either way. Prime Tysons speed, relentlessness, power and combinations would shift the balance in his favour but Lennox could possibly dominate the way there fight went

Liston-Lewis - 9-1 Lennox - Lennox is far the better boxer, far faster, better technician, bigger, stronger and hit harder. Liston was a formidable foe and may be able to pull off 1 lucky KO if they fought 10 times

Frazier - Lennox - 10-0 Lennox - Frazier got pummelled by Foreman twice and Lennox would do the exact same thing and nto only that he could also outbox and punnish him.

Did you actually put Archie Moore in with Lennox Lewis? 10-0 to Lennox all by early KOs

Sorry, but your list is full with double standards. Marciano not the best chin, he was knocked down by Moore and Walcott, can you immagine what Lewis would do? We can it also turnaround, when McCall and Rahman both KOīd Lewis with one punch, can you immagine what Marciano would do? Or that Frazier would lose 10 times against Lewis, etc., I donīt know
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