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Old 01-24-2010, 04:46 PM   #1
cross_trainer
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Default "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

In fantasy matchups, posters often pick "superheavyweight" fighters over guys like Louis and Liston because of their superior modern training. They're bigger, hit harder, and are still well-conditioned.

So...

Why do we give Ali a pass against Klitschko or Lewis? In his prime, Ali trained the same way that Marciano and Dempsey did--roadwork, sparring, and bagwork. Didn't even have punching mitts, as far as I know. Why wouldn't Klitschko (either one, really) clobber him?

Is it just that Ali is on color television, or what?
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:00 PM   #2
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

This is what I find incomprehensible about the "better training" argument.

Why would anybody in their right mind want to change, or try to improve a prime Muhamad Ali?

There is a bit of a double standard where this argument is applied. Some people want to use the "all sports advance" argument, but then have progress stopping in the late 1960s to protect their favourite fighter.

The bottom line in boxing, is that if John L Sullivan hits Wladamir Klitschko under the right circumstances he is going down.
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:03 PM   #3
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by cross_trainer View Post
In fantasy matchups, posters often pick "superheavyweight" fighters over guys like Louis and Liston because of their superior modern training. They're bigger, hit harder, and are still well-conditioned.

So...

Why do we give Ali a pass against Klitschko or Lewis? In his prime, Ali trained the same way that Marciano and Dempsey did--roadwork, sparring, and bagwork. Didn't even have punching mitts, as far as I know. Why wouldn't Klitschko (either one, really) clobber him?

Is it just that Ali is on color television, or what?
His reflexes, speed of hand & foot are just phenomenal. I haven't even gotten into the fact that he's accurate, throws every punch great, and is unconventional as a fighter. Ali would just utterly embarrass Vitali. Ali also dealt with the 6'5 Ernie Terrel. Considering Terrel is faster than either Klitiscko or anyone they fought I think that says a lot about Ali and his ability to evade. He completely nullified the 6'3-6'4 Bugner who was much faster than either Klit. And he was quite possibly the smartest HW of all time. And, Ali fought and beat the best. He fought in the golden era of HW boxing, and has the best resume in the history of HW fighting.

Check Ali past his prime against Bugner.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nEdp5vP5G4[/ame]


Wlad would be a tougher fight but I still think Ali schools him enough to win.

He handles both of them.
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:10 PM   #4
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

The best fighters in history were 80% born.

Sure they might have turned out badly with the wrong breaks and influences but much of what they had was god given.

Nobody expects to see another Joe Louis or another Muhamad Ali in their lifetime.

Why is it so hard to accept that Bob Fitzsimmons was a similar aberation, albeit under different circumstances.
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:13 PM   #5
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
The best fighters in history were 80% born.

Sure they might have turned out badly with the wrong breaks and influences but much of what they had was god given.

Nobody expects to see another Joe Louis or another Muhamad Ali in their lifetime.

Why is it so hard to accept that Bob Fitzsimmons was a similar aberation, albeit under different circumstances.


And there's nothing to show me that Wlad/Vitali were born better or born as phenoms. They're more ordinary, and whatever advancement they have in training won't matter. It's not like their stamina, skills, or ability match Ali. They are tall, physical, and hit hard. They know how to use range, and their physical advantages (Especially Vitali). Wlad is the much better technician, although he has weaknesses his brother doesn't has. That's the contradiction, but he's the better boxer. That is really all they are, though. Good fighters, nothing special.
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:27 PM   #6
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

Fitzsimmons was a bigger freak than either Louis or Ali for my money.

Modern training is worse. They spar less, is the main reason. But I don't see any kind of difference between the quality in guys like McLarnin/Dempsey and Pacquiao/Lewis. This is party because, like Janitor says, great fighters are 80% born but it's also because training in 1895 and 2005 had exactly the same goal; to make fighters sharp and have stamina.
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetethePrince View Post


And there's nothing to show me that Wlad/Vitali were born better or born as phenoms. They're more ordinary, and whatever advancement they have in training won't matter. It's not like their stamina, skills, or ability match Ali. They are tall, physical, and hit hard. They know how to use range, and their physical advantages (Especially Vitali). Wlad is the much better technician, although he has weaknesses his brother doesn't has. That's the contradiction, but he's the better boxer. That is really all they are, though. Good fighters, nothing special.
I would also be curious to know what na modern trainer could do to improve Primo Carnera significantly.

I would suggest that when he won the title from Jack Sharkey, he was about as good as he was ever likley to get.
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:28 PM   #8
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

But CT, many of the guys who want to pick the Klits over Liston/Louis also want to pick him over Ali.
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:34 PM   #9
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

Its because Ali relies on speed/movement/skill and not power/size/strength. Ali has shown he is very good against bigger slower men. Skill wise Ali is better than Lennox, Lennox is more arguably more skillfull than Liston/Louis and hes bigger/rangier, and very fast.

Vitali is unorthodox but very effective, I'm not 100% sure on how he does against Louis/Liston, but he may well win, especially against Liston, hes a nightmare fight in many ways. And remember I've being Vitali's biggest critic and hate his twaty fanboys

I dont think Ali necessarily has an easy night with Lennox/vitali, but he beats both
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:42 PM   #10
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post
Its because Ali relies on speed/movement/skill and not power/size/strength. Ali has shown he is very good against bigger slower men.
I agree that Ali would probably do well against larger slower fighters but when has he actualy done it?

One of the ironies of this debate, is that Dempsey and Louis are much more proven against superheavyweights than the idolised champions of the 70s.
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Old 01-24-2010, 06:41 PM   #11
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

[quote=janitor;5973795]
Quote:

I agree that Ali would probably do well against larger slower fighters but when has he actualy done it?

One of the ironies of this debate, is that Dempsey and Louis are much more proven against superheavyweights than the idolised champions of the 70s.
Foreman (how he isnt a SHW I dont know) and Liston (not sure hes a SHW but had SHW strength/reach), Terrell and Bugner

Dempsey beat 2 SHWs, but both had very poor skills and comparing them to the likes of Vitali let alone Lennox is a joke
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Old 01-24-2010, 06:44 PM   #12
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

Wlad would have stood a very good chance at beating ali.
His main weakness is having a bad chin, but Ali wasn't exactly a bomber.

He'd be like a 6'6 250 pound Ken Norton.
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Old 01-24-2010, 06:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

[quote]
[quote=PowerPuncher;5974179]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post

Foreman (how he isnt a SHW I dont know)
He was a sub 220 lb fighter.

Quote:
and Liston (not sure hes a SHW but had SHW strength/reach), Terrell and Bugner
Both small guys in todays money (on paper at least ).

Quote:
Dempsey beat 2 SHWs, but both had very poor skills and comparing them to the likes of Vitali let alone Lennox is a joke
Dempsey beat 3 genuine world class superheavyweights.

Liston didn't

Ali didn't.

Frazier din't

Foreman didn't

Do you see a patern forming?
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Old 01-24-2010, 07:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

[quote=PowerPuncher;5974179]
Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Dempsey beat 2 SHWs, but both had very poor skills and comparing them to the likes of Vitali let alone Lennox is a joke
He beat two SHWs on film, but also destroyed Fred Fulton and Carl Morris en route to the title. The switch hitting Fulton nearly got a shot at Willard before Dempsey. (Good thing for us he didn't, or we'd only have a 30 second film clip of Jack winning the title.)
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Old 01-24-2010, 07:20 PM   #15
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Default Re: "Better Modern Training" and Muhammad Ali

[quote=janitor;5974289][quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher View Post

He was a sub 220 lb fighter.



Both small guys in todays money (on paper at least ).



Dempsey beat 3 genuine world class superheavyweights.

Liston didn't

Ali didn't.

Frazier din't

Foreman didn't

Do you see a patern forming?
Foreman is 6'3 1/2, with an 80 inch reach and considered the strongest HW of all time. Foreman was 228lbs aged 28. Lewis was 6'5, 84 inch reach, 228lbs aged 28. Lewis is rangier, Foreman stronger

Bugner - 6'4, 82inch reach 220-240lbs

Terrell - 6'6, 82 inch reach, 210lbs+ (went upto 230)

Yea Ali never beat any SHWs And lets compare them to the SHW Firpo, as your claiming for Dempsey as a SHW, who was only 6'2 1/2 and 210lbs, Norton and Lyle were bigger than Firpo
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