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Old 01-25-2010, 12:51 PM   #16
mcvey
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

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Originally Posted by HomicideHenry View Post
Sorry for the mistakes, however, it cant be denied that Squires was considered Australia's best man and was figured to be the favorite and demolish Burns easily. Squires had a impressive kayo streak by that era's standards, considering most fights ended in no decisions and no contests.

Also, to say Burns challengers were weak is a bit misguided. Jem Roche's record is incomplete, as some have discovered that the Irishman had nearly 30 fights. The same goes for many of Burns title defense opponents. Bill Lang was mere fodder for Burns, who was another great Australian fighter. Gunner Moir didnt stand a chance either, and Moir kayoed such men as Billy Wells.

It makes me wonder, sometimes, had Burns given Sam McVey the shot instead of Johnson, would he have beaten big Sam, and if so, would there even have been a Jack Johnson to remember?
I am not knocking Noah Brusso, I am a fan of his, he was crafty mobile ,had fast hands ,good footwork was a very good inside fighter ,and possessed a dangerous right hand wallop,as the film amply demonsrates
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Old 01-25-2010, 01:23 PM   #17
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

Squires looks pretty bad in that footage. Burns timing is spot on, though, catching him those rights over Squire's low left. Some guys can get away with that posture. Squires was obviously not one of those people.
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Old 01-25-2010, 02:19 PM   #18
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

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Originally Posted by flamengo View Post
Sorry McVey, Squires actual record prior to Burns reads like this, working back through his record...

1906 KO 1 Mike Williams Melbourne.
KO 1 Bill Smith Melbourne.
KO 1 Peter Kling Melbourne.
KO 3 Tim Murphy Melbourne. Aust H/W title
KO 1 Ed Williams Melbourne.

1905 KO 7 Peter Felix Sydney.
KO 3 Dick Kernick Melbourne.
KO 4 Tom Fennessey Melbourne.
W/Pts6 Jack Goggings Wyalong.
KO 6 Bill Smith Wyalong.
KO 1 Pat Farley Newcastle.
KO 1 Peter Felix Sydney.

1904 L/F8 Arthur Cripps
W/F 11 Peter Felix
W/F 4 Starlight
W/F 4 Mick Ryan
KO 2 Bill Heckenberg
KO 3 Starlight
KO 3 Mick Ryan
KO 1 Jack Tucker
KO 2 Tom Ireland

1903 D/6 Bob Hilderbrand
W/15 Jerry O'Toole
KO 1 Bob Hilderbrand
KO 4 Jack Briston
KO 3 Andy Walsh

1902 KO 3 Joe Sullivan
KO 2 Peter Mills
KO 2 Jack Lanagan
Ko 3 Bill Costello.
Thanks Flamengo
With hindsight (allways useful!) Bill didn't beat much quality up to that point except perhaps the Irish/SouthAfrican Williams and Felix?
He did do a job on Roche later on and as somebody pointed Roche had a fairly respectable record.
Burns has indeed a decent resumee with the likes of Hart, Kelly, Sullivan, O'Brien, Flynn, Lang and Pelkey either held even or beaten. Has to be the most underated champion of them all.
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Old 01-25-2010, 02:58 PM   #19
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

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Originally Posted by flamengo View Post
Sorry McVey, Squires actual record prior to Burns reads like this, working back through his record...

1906 KO 1 Mike Williams Melbourne.
KO 1 Bill Smith Melbourne.
KO 1 Peter Kling Melbourne.
KO 3 Tim Murphy Melbourne. Aust H/W title
KO 1 Ed Williams Melbourne.

1905 KO 7 Peter Felix Sydney.
KO 3 Dick Kernick Melbourne.
KO 4 Tom Fennessey Melbourne.
W/Pts6 Jack Goggings Wyalong.
KO 6 Bill Smith Wyalong.
KO 1 Pat Farley Newcastle.
KO 1 Peter Felix Sydney.

1904 L/F8 Arthur Cripps
W/F 11 Peter Felix
W/F 4 Starlight
W/F 4 Mick Ryan
KO 2 Bill Heckenberg
KO 3 Starlight
KO 3 Mick Ryan
KO 1 Jack Tucker
KO 2 Tom Ireland

1903 D/6 Bob Hilderbrand
W/15 Jerry O'Toole
KO 1 Bob Hilderbrand
KO 4 Jack Briston
KO 3 Andy Walsh

1902 KO 3 Joe Sullivan
KO 2 Peter Mills
KO 2 Jack Lanagan
Ko 3 Bill Costello.
No worries mate! Allways prepared to be corrected in the cause of accuracy,I took my info from Box rec,but I am quite prepared to accept your figures ,as I know you have researched Aussie fighters
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Old 01-25-2010, 04:51 PM   #20
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

From boxrec.

"Squires, champion of Australia, was a 10-9 favourite"

Also, Burns looked extremely strong. Prior to one of the knockdowns he throws Squires around like a ragdoll, and the knockdown punch following it basically throws Squires to the ground.
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Old 01-25-2010, 05:41 PM   #21
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

Note Burns' hopping and low hands, and compare it to:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkGP0AM14F0[/ame]
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Old 01-25-2010, 05:50 PM   #22
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

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Note Burns' hopping and low hands, and compare it to:

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]
since totally different cultures and evolutions lead to a similar style this could mean this style is the best suited to barenuckle fighters repectivly fights with very small gloves.
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Old 01-25-2010, 07:27 PM   #23
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

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Originally Posted by mcvey View Post
No worries mate! Allways prepared to be corrected in the cause of accuracy,I took my info from Box rec,but I am quite prepared to accept your figures ,as I know you have researched Aussie fighters

McVey, the record comes from Max Ryan's book, 'Two Champs From Narrabri'. Detailing the careers of Colin Bell and 'Boshter' Bill. Clay Moyle mentioned the book on this forum a while back now.. should you like a copy, I'll make one available for you and Matt Donnellan.

Cheers.
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Old 01-25-2010, 07:36 PM   #24
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

Flamengo I am remiss in not trading Peter Maher 's book for Jackson's with you, time constraints and all that. Sorry, PM me please.
By the way do you have Bill Doherty's book, I have read extracts and it sounds great.
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:38 PM   #25
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

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Didn't know Jeffries had considered Burns as a possible come back opponent. I do know however that Squires originally called out Jeffries, for the "real" championship of the world and Jeffries laughed in his face. Squires then took on Burns and was kayoed in one round, and later became Burns sparring partner and was given two more shots at Burns, both kayo losses.

Jeffries also had an offer to come back.

Burns had some skills here. Amazing, he doesn't look this lively vs Johnson in the early rounds.
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:01 AM   #26
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

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[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]


Burns, no more than 5'7" and 178 pounds, was made the underdog against Australia's Bill Squires who was coming off a 20 consecutive knockout streak in the 'Land Down Under'. Squires was considered too big, too strong, for Burns and that only Jim Jeffries stood a chance at beating Squires.

The result was one of the fastest knockouts in history of boxing. Burns was a 10-1 underdog and he kayoed Squires inside 1:30 of the first round. Amazing stuff. Its sad people remember Burns for the loss to Johnson, but not for his exploits at middleweight, light heavyweight and early heavyweight championship reign. He was the first to truly challenge the world.
Naw... It ain't sad that nobody remembers the good points of Tommy Burns' pro career as a fighter...... Why? Cuz everybody is now dead whoever saw the guy fight...... Plus, films were brand new to the world in them days and also very crude, so much of the footage has been lost due to age, etc....... And only a handful of boxing / sports fans are gonna read a book about Tommy Burns since he was NOT all that popular to begin with....... It all adds up........

Tommy Burns being battered by Jack Johnson in 1908 Aussieville will ALWAYS be Burns' highlight reel....... That's just the way the cookie crumbles in life sometimes........

Thomas Burns died broke in 1955---circa and was buried in a pine box without a tombstone for a number of years until people chipped in and scored the dead man a stone..... Jesus H. Christ..... Now that's sad.......

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Old 01-26-2010, 01:11 AM   #27
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

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Naw... It ain't sad that nobody remembers the good points of Tommy Burns' pro career as a fighter...... Why? Cuz everybody is now dead whoever saw the guy fight...... Plus, films were brand new to the world in them days and also very crude, so much of the footage has been lost due to age, etc....... And only a handful of boxing / sports fans are gonna read a book about Tommy Burns since he was NOT all that popular to begin with....... It all adds up........

Tommy Burns being battered by Jack Johnson in 1908 Aussieville will ALWAYS be Burns' highlight reel....... That's just the way the cookie crumbles in life sometimes........

Thomas Burns died broke in 1955---circa and was buried in a pine box without a tombstone for a number of years until people chipped in and scored the dead man a stone..... Jesus H. Christ..... Now that's sad.......

MR.BILL
Surely you can come up with something better than that??

A book detailing the life and career of Burns would read far better than that of Jefferies, who by the way was slaughtered more convincingly by Johnson than Burns was.

Burns is terribly under rated, with several others being decorated in fanciful glories, hardly worthy to them.
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Old 01-26-2010, 01:25 AM   #28
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

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Surely you can come up with something better than that??

A book detailing the life and career of Burns would read far better than that of Jefferies, who by the way was slaughtered more convincingly by Johnson than Burns was.

Burns is terribly under rated, with several others being decorated in fanciful glories, hardly worthy to them.
Hey, it is what it is....... Burns was technically sound---for a middle / light-heavy..... But as a true heavyweight, he was too small to be there..... However, since heavies back in them days were nowhere near the size of the post 1960s dudes, I suppose Ol' Burns was able to hang in there against some of the bigger guys, but not with a guy like Jack Johnson.... Marvin Hart was no Johnson........

However, as much as I can respect a guy like Tommy Burns, I gotta say I've never gone outta my way to find his life story on paperback.... Here in 2010, I just don't see that as a top seller on the rack....... Either you are interested or you are not....... Simple.......

I also do NOT see history being kind to Tommy Burns by claiming he was a great champion; he was not a great champion..... A good / great overall pound-4-pound fighter is more like it and believable.....


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Old 01-26-2010, 02:02 AM   #29
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

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Hey, it is what it is....... Burns was technically sound---for a middle / light-heavy..... But as a true heavyweight, he was too small to be there..... However, since heavies back in them days were nowhere near the size of the post 1960s dudes, I suppose Ol' Burns was able to hang in there against some of the bigger guys, but not with a guy like Jack Johnson.... Marvin Hart was no Johnson........

However, as much as I can respect a guy like Tommy Burns, I gotta say I've never gone outta my way to find his life story on paperback.... Here in 2010, I just don't see that as a top seller on the rack....... Either you are interested or you are not....... Simple.......

I also do NOT see history being kind to Tommy Burns by claiming he was a great champion; he was not a great champion..... A good / great overall pound-4-pound fighter is more like it and believable.....


MR.BILL
Fair enough.. each to their own.

For a M/W to LH/W lil' Tommy travelled pretty well in the H/W ranks. Each title defence ending in KO's, other than those which saw Phila Jack run to the hills for 20 rounds.

Constantly giving away lbs, and always fighting larger men, lil' Tommy proved himself a serious fighter/puncher.
Is there a book released on his career?? I'd definately like to read whats available. Perhaps not everyone's cup o' tea, regardless the story would be very colourful.
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Old 01-26-2010, 02:13 AM   #30
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Default Re: Tommy Burns vs Bill Squires (1907)

I gotta admit, I am much more intrigued by Jim Jeffries and his story compared to the tale of Tommy Burns......... No real reason why, its just that I am.... I find Jeffries to be this big man of great strength and coordination at over 6' tall and a solid 220 to 227 pounds for the time / era of 1900--circa.........

Great dream fights to me are: "Jeffries versus Dempsey or Marciano." I'll pay the piper in the after life to witness them matches in either heaven or hell....... I'm willing to travel and vacation in both places to see those fights........... Damn straight.........

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