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Old 01-26-2010, 08:11 PM   #31
TheGreatA
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Default Re: Top 15 atg Hw's is easy but try rate these!

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Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
A few points re inconsistancy of Sharkey. From 1925 until 1933 he lost three fights, a split decision to Johnny Risko, that ko loss to Dempsey and a disqualification loss to Max Schmeling. Thats 9 years at the top. In that period the erratic(?) Sharkey beat Risko and Schmeling, as well as Carnera. Top contenders Stribling, Godfrey, Wills, Loughran, Scott, Delaney, McTigue, Gorman were all defeated and Walker and Heeney were held even. He was rated for all of these 9 years.
In Jack's sixth fight he fought and beat contender Floyd Johnson. Schmeling, good and consistant as he was had a slow start but from 1928 to 1938 lost three times to Baer, Sharkey and Hamas,with a draw with the fading Uzcuden stuck in there. At best only as good as Jack and his wins over Jack, Hamas, Neussel, Walker, Uzcuden, Risko leaves him behind Sharkey but in fairness the big Louis win balances thing up. In other words their resumee is pretty even and at peak H2H I favour Sharkey.
Only tunney was more consistant but with a thinner resumee. Walcott and Charles had their surprise defeats too and while Patterson was consistant this consisted of beating good guys but generally losing to the top top fighters.
Exactly what I was going to write.

How ironic that he would lose to blatant low blows against Dempsey, while being DQ'd for one punch below the belt against Schmeling, the only time the heavyweight title was won on a DQ. Both fights he was clearly winning.

He was not that inconsistent during his prime years. Newspapers scored the Walker draw for him and he seems to get the better of Heenan on film.

Also Sharkey rarely took on any easy opponents. Just about all of his fights were against ranked contenders.

I'm aware that I probably rate Sharkey higher than most, but he tends to be overlooked too. He was slippery and could punch better than his record indicates. Light heavyweights never seemed to find any success against him, ask Tommy Loughran, Jack Delaney or Mike McTigue.

Godfrey and Wills were avoided by everybody, Sharkey beat them.
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Old 01-26-2010, 11:35 PM   #32
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Default Re: Top 15 atg Hw's is easy but try rate these!

Charles - The difference between Charles and Walcott is thin, but Charles was more consistent and only lost to the best until he started declining.
Walcott - Great fighter who lasted a long time. Should have beaten Louis twice, albeit an old Louis.
Patterson - Quickest of the bunch. Would have faired well against the smaller heavyweights, with his speed and good power. Great heart for a little guy.
Tunney - Showed fine skills, but not the resume at heavyweight. Didn't love fighting.
Schmeling - Biggest of the bunch, but didn't always come to fight. Has been knocked out by lesser opponents. Beat a young Joe Louis because of a great gameplan. Probably could have beaten two of the fighters I listed above him
Sharkey - He should be happy to be last on this list. Just not good enough to be picked any higher.
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Old 01-26-2010, 11:47 PM   #33
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Default Re: Top 15 atg Hw's is easy but try rate these!

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Charles - The difference between Charles and Walcott is thin, but Charles was more consistent and only lost to the best until he started declining.
Walcott - Great fighter who lasted a long time. Should have beaten Louis twice, albeit an old Louis.
Patterson - Quickest of the bunch. Would have faired well against the smaller heavyweights, with his speed and good power. Great heart for a little guy.
Tunney - Showed fine skills, but not the resume at heavyweight. Didn't love fighting.
Schmeling - Biggest of the bunch, but didn't always come to fight. Has been knocked out by lesser opponents. Beat a young Joe Louis because of a great gameplan. Probably could have beaten two of the fighters I listed above him
Sharkey - He should be happy to be last on this list. Just not good enough to be picked any higher.
Louis and Baer weren't lesser opponents, and they were the only ones to ever gain any relevent stoppages over him, and in both of those stoppage losses he was still conscious at the end despite taking the best punches from two of the best HW punchers of all time. Schmeling's chin is underrated.
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Old 01-27-2010, 03:21 AM   #34
bodhi
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Default Re: Top 15 atg Hw's is easy but try rate these!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
A few points re inconsistancy of Sharkey. From 1925 until 1933 he lost three fights, a split decision to Johnny Risko, that ko loss to Dempsey and a disqualification loss to Max Schmeling. Thats 9 years at the top. In that period the erratic(?) Sharkey beat Risko and Schmeling, as well as Carnera. Top contenders Stribling, Godfrey, Wills, Loughran, Scott, Delaney, McTigue, Gorman were all defeated and Walker and Heeney were held even. He was rated for all of these 9 years.
In Jack's sixth fight he fought and beat contender Floyd Johnson. Schmeling, good and consistant as he was had a slow start but from 1928 to 1938 lost three times to Baer, Sharkey and Hamas,with a draw with the fading Uzcuden stuck in there. At best only as good as Jack and his wins over Jack, Hamas, Neussel, Walker, Uzcuden, Risko leaves him behind Sharkey but in fairness the big Louis win balances thing up. In other words their resumee is pretty even and at peak H2H I favour Sharkey.
Only tunney was more consistant but with a thinner resumee. Walcott and Charles had their surprise defeats too and while Patterson was consistant this consisted of beating good guys but generally losing to the top top fighters.
I want to add a few things:
- Sharkey never beat Schmeling!
- Schmeling did better against their common opponents: he actually beat Walker and Risko and Stribling more impressivly than Sharkey
- Schmeling beat Uzcudun before and after the draw, once by KO.
- Wills was more than done when he beat him

The depth of resume of Sharkey and Schmeling is very similar but Schmeling was more dominant, has the better top wins and was overall more consistent.

Just a goodie, when Schmeling fought Neusel, Neusel was ranked 3 and Schmeling 4 by the ring magazine. It was the biggest fight with the most spectators in Europe, 102,000, and the Nazis wanted to try to make the winner the "European worldchampion".
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:53 AM   #35
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Default Re: Top 15 atg Hw's is easy but try rate these!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
A few points re inconsistancy of Sharkey. From 1925 until 1933 he lost three fights, a split decision to Johnny Risko, that ko loss to Dempsey and a disqualification loss to Max Schmeling. Thats 9 years at the top. In that period the erratic(?) Sharkey beat Risko and Schmeling, as well as Carnera. Top contenders Stribling, Godfrey, Wills, Loughran, Scott, Delaney, McTigue, Gorman were all defeated and Walker and Heeney were held even. He was rated for all of these 9 years.
In Jack's sixth fight he fought and beat contender Floyd Johnson. Schmeling, good and consistant as he was had a slow start but from 1928 to 1938 lost three times to Baer, Sharkey and Hamas,with a draw with the fading Uzcuden stuck in there. At best only as good as Jack and his wins over Jack, Hamas, Neussel, Walker, Uzcuden, Risko leaves him behind Sharkey but in fairness the big Louis win balances thing up. In other words their resumee is pretty even and at peak H2H I favour Sharkey.
Only tunney was more consistant but with a thinner resumee. Walcott and Charles had their surprise defeats too and while Patterson was consistant this consisted of beating good guys but generally losing to the top top fighters.
against common opponents schmeling did a beter job on the same guys that sharkey fought. max knocked risko out, apart from his last fight max was the only guy to do that to the "rubber man" in 142 fights where as sharky lost to and beat risko on points. shrakey drew with walker where as schmeling knocked him out. stribling was knocked out by scmeling but went the distance with sharkey. when sharkey met schmeling overall, regardless of the decision max was beter.
As for the fights max lost in that period he beat hammas back by KO and hammas never fought again. the uzcudun draw was against a guy max already beat and would beat again, not that there is any shame in drawing with a guy who beat max baer and harry wills.
sharkey lost twice to charley weinert who lost to most name fighters out there and jack was as likly to lose rematches with rated guys he beat like laughran and carnera who even kod him. im sorry, but as good as sharkey was this dosnt stand up equal to schmeling.
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Old 01-27-2010, 10:46 AM   #36
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Default Re: Top 15 atg Hw's is easy but try rate these!

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Originally Posted by mattdonnellon View Post
Tunney
Sharkey
Schmeling
Walcott
Charles
Patterson

I find this DAMN hard. Experts needed.
if you meant to order them then :
walcott
charles
schmelling
tunney
sharkey
patterson


i admit it is hard , it did not take me plenty of time , but i could be wrong to some extent , maybe 1 place exchanges , 2 max but no more.

Last edited by frankenfrank; 01-27-2010 at 12:39 PM. Reason: forgot tunney
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Old 01-27-2010, 11:57 AM   #37
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Default Re: Top 15 atg Hw's is easy but try rate these!

well i rate charles as a light-heavy so he comes (almost) on bottom off the list but if it was a p4p ranking he'd be on top.
1 patterson h2h he'd beat the others on this list
2 tunney
3 schmeling (he tends to get a bit underrated)
4 walcott
5 charles
6 sharkey
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Old 01-27-2010, 12:00 PM   #38
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Default Re: Top 15 atg Hw's is easy but try rate these!

Walcott/Charles
Schmeling
Patterson
Tunney
Sharkey
is how i see it
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