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View Poll Results: How many does Liston win?
1 2 3.77%
2 2 3.77%
3 5 9.43%
4 9 16.98%
5 7 13.21%
6 9 16.98%
7 9 16.98%
8 4 7.55%
9 2 3.77%
10 4 7.55%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-28-2007, 08:36 PM   #1
Mendoza
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Default How many does Liston win vs...

With all this talk about Liston being over rated I wanted to air out this question. If Liston had one match vs the ten following fighters, how many would he win?

The fighters are: Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, Holyfield, and Lewis.
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Old 09-29-2007, 02:42 AM   #2
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

I went with four. I could really see anywhere from about 2 to 6, though- there are a number of guys in there who I think he could pretty much go either way against
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Old 09-29-2007, 03:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

I went for 3 but maybe 4 - Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier
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Old 09-29-2007, 05:42 AM   #4
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

He could win all of them, though in reality that's pretty unlikely. There are plenty of tight squeezes in there and he would be almost bound to lose one or three.
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Old 09-29-2007, 05:42 AM   #5
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

I say he would have been very competetive in around 7 , but win 5 at a push.. Joe Louis would have made a hamburger out of Sonny , just purely because Joe was so powerful with quick short punches.. Liston would have needed space to compete succesfully but Joe would have just closed him down and crowded his space..

Foreman would have just slammed at Sonny and when Sonny was a fresh young gun , he would have just doubled up his jab and made George tired and outworked. Sonnys easiest fight of the bunch..

Joe Frazier would have found Sonny too much to contain, in this case , you can't just beat fire with fire..
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Old 09-29-2007, 05:52 AM   #6
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

7
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Old 09-29-2007, 06:51 AM   #7
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
I went with four. I could really see anywhere from about 2 to 6, though- there are a number of guys in there who I think he could pretty much go either way against
I had 4 as well.

I think he should be favored over Johnson, Dempsey, Frazier and Marciano, although i wouldn't be suprised if one of Dempsey, Frazier and Marciano beats him. I would give Marciano the best chance of those, because he seems most durable and is a bit less predictable than the other two. I don't see Johnson beating him, though.
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Old 09-29-2007, 07:27 AM   #8
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

I picked 7.
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Old 09-29-2007, 09:52 AM   #9
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Against Johnson over 15, he'd win because Johnson's style was not designed for 15 against a modern fighter of Liston's caliber.

Liston is too physically powerful and skilled for Dempsey, Marciano, and yes, Louis. Louis has him on speed, and skill, but not by much there. Louis's problem is Liston's jab and strength at any distance.

Ali is favored here, prime for prime.

Foreman would be stopped late after fading. Liston can outbang him or outbox him in my estimation and I see him using both approaches.

Frazier would be demolished.

Holyfield would make a great stand, but he has to be expected to war with Liston and that won't work. Holyfield's beautiful strategy against Tyson fails against Liston and Holyfield did have problems with superior strength. Again, Liston matches Holyfield's skill and that jab would be a serious problem for Evander who would eat it often. Holyfield's left ventricle may be noncompliant by round 4.

Tyson admitted that he had no answer for the Liston jab and Liston had the style to destroy smaller guys who relied on forward motion.

Lewis is only slightly unfavored here. I think that Liston is twice Mercer in terms of skill and stamina. I've always held that Liston is the strongest of the HW champs. However, Lewis's size and patient disposition would help him.

I have him favored over 9. I pressed 10 by accident.
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Old 09-29-2007, 09:58 AM   #10
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Stonehands, fair post but i wonder why you think Liston would outmuscle Louis but such a large margin?
Liston was 6'0 or 6'0 1/2 and Louis 6'2. Liston weighed 204-212lb in his prime, Louis 199-207lb. So in size there's not much between them.
Now, Louis has beaten more big men and better big men. So what makes you think he'd be in a world of trouble because of Liston's strength?

How much of a favorite do you consider Liston to be over Louis, 2 to 1 ?
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Old 09-29-2007, 10:02 AM   #11
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

I don't think liston would beat lewis,ali,louis or dempsey, i could see him having trouble with a few other but i reckon he beats the other 6 most of the time. I also think larry holmes would beat liston but he aint on the list.
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Old 09-29-2007, 10:23 AM   #12
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Stonehands, fair post but i wonder why you think Liston would outmuscle Louis but such a large margin?
Liston was 6'0 or 6'0 1/2 and Louis 6'2. Liston weighed 204-212lb in his prime, Louis 199-207lb. So in size there's not much between them.
Now, Louis has beaten more big men and better big men. So what makes you think he'd be in a world of trouble because of Liston's strength?

How much of a favorite do you consider Liston to be over Louis, 2 to 1 ?
I think Sonny would be a hard fight for Louis, but no-one gonna rate him 1-2. No man in history can be afforded even close to these odds vs Joe Louis.
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Old 09-29-2007, 10:27 AM   #13
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius
Stonehands, fair post but i wonder why you think Liston would outmuscle Louis but such a large margin?
Liston was 6'0 or 6'0 1/2 and Louis 6'2. Liston weighed 204-212lb in his prime, Louis 199-207lb. So in size there's not much between them.
Now, Louis has beaten more big men and better big men. So what makes you think he'd be in a world of trouble because of Liston's strength?

How much of a favorite do you consider Liston to be over Louis, 2 to 1 ?
Liston's weight struck me as deceptive as a measure of his strength. He was thick and cabled and had a physically that was leaden. I don't know if you have boxed before, but there are some guys who have an unusual amount of strength that defies their weight. I would sense it or feel it inside early and would adjust my strategy based on that. I'm no weakling -at 150lbs I was benching 245, but was no match for these types in terms of strength. One of them, a ex. MW contender couldn't bench more than 200lbs but it didn't matter. Watching Liston's films and reading accounts over the years convinced me that he epitomized this theory.

Louis' strength was not close to Liston's -especially during his prime years. He could be moved with ease and I have always questioned his durability (ex. Conn). I do think Louis got stronger as he aged.

The big men that Louis beat were not nearly as formidable as later incarnations of big men. Buddy Baer, Primo, Abe Simon --these were uncoordinated oafs. Buddy put him down. Walcott put him down. Galento, Conn (at 169 lbs), and even Tami Mauriello (who was about 195lbs) staggered him.

I am a fan of Louis -don't get me wrong and go back and forth between Ali and him as to who is the best HW ever. But Liston strikes me as far beyond anything he ever faced because of the combination of asset he brought -durability like Rocco, good skill, murderous jab, physicality, a great chin. Louis isn't going to "box and move" and lacked the height, size and strength to jam with him.

That being said, when examining everyone's chances against Liston, I put 1967 Ali at the top because he is the only one favored against 1959 Liston. Lewis strikes me as the next likely, though not favored, followed by Louis. I'd give Lewis a 45% chance and Louis a bit less of a chance here.
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Old 09-29-2007, 11:18 AM   #14
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonehands89
Liston's weight struck me as deceptive as a measure of his strength. He was thick and cabled and had a physically that was leaden. I don't know if you have boxed before, but there are some guys who have an unusual amount of strength that defies their weight. I would sense it or feel it inside early and would adjust my strategy based on that. I'm no weakling -at 150lbs I was benching 245, but was no match for these types in terms of strength. One of them, a ex. MW contender couldn't bench more than 200lbs but it didn't matter. Watching Liston's films and reading accounts over the years convinced me that he epitomized this theory.

Louis' strength was not close to Liston's -especially during his prime years. He could be moved with ease and I have always questioned his durability (ex. Conn). I do think Louis got stronger as he aged.

The big men that Louis beat were not nearly as formidable as later incarnations of big men. Buddy Baer, Primo, Abe Simon --these were uncoordinated oafs. Buddy put him down. Walcott put him down. Galento, Conn (at 169 lbs), and even Tami Mauriello (who was about 195lbs) staggered him.

I am a fan of Louis -don't get me wrong and go back and forth between Ali and him as to who is the best HW ever. But Liston strikes me as far beyond anything he ever faced because of the combination of asset he brought -durability like Rocco, good skill, murderous jab, physicality, a great chin. Louis isn't going to "box and move" and lacked the height, size and strength to jam with him.

That being said, when examining everyone's chances against Liston, I put 1967 Ali at the top because he is the only one favored against 1959 Liston. Lewis strikes me as the next likely, though not favored, followed by Louis. I'd give Lewis a 45% chance and Louis a bit less of a chance here.
Yes i have, and indeed some people have a natural strength, i'm not saying that Liston doesn't have it. But i also noticed that it's very hard to overcome when the opponent has far faster hands and won't let you get your punches off. This is one advantage that Louis has, so it evens things out for me. But of course it's subjective.
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Old 09-29-2007, 11:58 AM   #15
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Default Re: How many does Liston win vs...

Ali obviously beats him (because Ali is peerless). Foreman presents a serious challenge, and I so picked Foreman. But I favor Liston against the others.
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