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Old 10-07-2007, 03:36 AM   #91
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

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One of the best highlight videos ever.
That highlight video gave me the shivers.....he is indeed "the marvelous one"
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Old 10-07-2007, 03:38 AM   #92
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

He was great. One of the best. I rate him 2nd behind Monzon and ahead of the Sugarman at 160.
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Old 10-07-2007, 04:05 AM   #93
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

A great fighter and one of the finest Middleweights ever, also a self made superstar.

Hagler got nothing easy, and when he had everything, he still trained with that hunger that got him to the top, something even his few peers could not always do.
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Old 10-07-2007, 04:49 AM   #94
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

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A great fighter and one of the finest Middleweights ever, also a self made superstar.

Hagler got nothing easy, and when he had everything, he still trained with that hunger that got him to the top, something even his few peers could not always do.


I agree. One of the (many) things you have to credit Marv for is his ability to be 'up' for every fight. Let's face it, it must have been dismaying for him when he found out he had to fight Hamsho and Obel in rematches, when he dusted them so convincingly first time out. Still, he got on with business in his usual manner.
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Old 10-07-2007, 07:40 AM   #95
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

he was also highly feared and avoided. Amazing chin, all round game.
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Old 10-07-2007, 09:25 AM   #96
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

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Originally Posted by brownpimp88
Kalambay arguably accomplished more than nino benvenuti, so i can make a claim that nunn kod someone thats even better than nino.
The opinion in question is your opinion that Michael Nunn is an all-time great middleweight. That has nothing to do with Nino or Griffith. His rating as an all-time great is independent of any other fighter's achievements. It is based on his achievements (or lack of them) alone.
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Old 10-07-2007, 12:49 PM   #97
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

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Originally Posted by dmille
I said that Toney was a proven GREAT. Maybe you can point out to me the proof that Kalambay was GREAT.
A proven great to you.Not imo and i was simply pointing out i actually think the kalambay nunn beat was superior to the toney that beat nunn(or any Toney i ever saw for that matter), not disagreeing with your point on Nunn.
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Old 10-07-2007, 02:01 PM   #98
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

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That's pretty good Dmille, not to mention original. You actually have a system. I never saw anyone with their own rules that go with a hierarchy. That explains why you have Hagler ranked so high in reference to some of the things you said about him. Still, I have a few doubts about Toney and I really think someone like Kalambay was a tough nut to crack which Nunn obviously did when he found that opening through his guard.

In the end though, you have more persuasive proof with Toney standing and Nunn lying flat on the canvas. And as I've said, the victor gets all the bragging rights.
My hierarchy is a pyramid. It has three general levels:

1 All-time greats
2 Legends
3 Greats

Within the all-time level, I have four sub-levels

1
2-10
11-80
81-100

At the top is one fighter, the greatest fighter of all-time pound-for-pound.

The next level down is the top ten fighters of all-time pound-for-pound (including that top fighter).

The next level down is the top ten fighters of all time from each of the eight traditional weight divisions (which includes the top ten pound for-pound).

IMO every all-time rating is also a pound-for-pound all-time rating. For example, the greatest welterweight of all-time is also the greatest welterweight of all-time pound-for-pound.

Eight of the top ten all-time pound-for-pound greats are the number one fighters of all-time from each of the eight traditional weight classes. I rate fighters in one division only, their natural/prime weight division. I constantly cross-compared the eight top tens with ten top eights to balance dominance with my pound-for-pound criteria.

After that those eighty, I round out my top 100 with those fighters who fall just outside the top ten for each weight division.

Many use the terms legend and all-time great as though they were interchangable. IMO legend is short for legend-in-their-own-time. All-time great transcend their own eras and could compete at the top level during any decade.

There are probably somewhere between 200 and 400 fighters who fall into that legend category. And there are around another 500 fighters who are (merely) greats.

Great is a term I use very loosely. Because as I said previously a fighter can prove himself great in any one of three ways.

1 Have a great record
2 Defeat great fighters
3 Win great fights

Example, Buster Douglas proved himself to be a great fighter by defeating Mike Tyson. Now he was great for only one fight, but that is the shame of it - what could have been.

Guys like Ward and Gatti proved themselves to be great fighters based on their trilogy of FOTY-level wars.

Even a fighter like Buck Smith, who fought mostly tomato cans, is great if only for his outrageous 178-19-2 (118 KOs) record.

Now come full circle and go back to Michael Nunn. His 58-4 record is an achievement he can be proud of; same with his 9 title defenses (5 at 160, 4 at 168). That's the first citeria.

Number two. His victories over A-level opposition Tate, Kalambay and Barkely are his most significant, followed by Starling, Curry and Cordova. You can throw in his pre-title wins over Alex Ramos and Curtis Parker as well.

But the only fighter he faced that comes close to hitting all five of my standards knocked him out. And Toney's meeting the dominance criteria is questionable due to so many controversial wins (Sosa, Johnson, McCallum, Tiberi). And Sosa was JT's only meaningful bout before getting the shot at Nunn.

Third criteria? Nunn never won a fight that I would call a war let alone a FOTY level battle. His crushing of Kalambay was more a great victory than a great fight.

Dominance? IMO he was the WORLD champion after that win, but he should have been facing McCallum, Benn and Jackson, rather than Curry or Starling.

P4P? Fugadabodit...

IMO he is not one of the top 20 middleweights of all-time nor one of the top 100 of all-time pound-for-pound.

Last edited by dmille; 10-07-2007 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 10-07-2007, 02:14 PM   #99
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

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Originally Posted by Mantequilla
A proven great to you. Not imo and i was simply pointing out i actually think the kalambay nunn beat was superior to the toney that beat nunn (or any Toney i ever saw for that matter), not disagreeing with your point on Nunn.
Well then point out anything significant that proved to you that Kalambay was better than simply world class.

His splitting two with McCallum? His pair of nods over Graham? Wins over Barkely and Collins?

Superior to any Toney you ever saw? And he proved it by getting taken out in the first round? Yeah much more impressive than JT's brawl with Jirov, his thrashing of Holy and his embarassingly easy out-boxing of Ruiz
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Old 10-07-2007, 04:03 PM   #100
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

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Originally Posted by dmille
Well then point out anything significant that proved to you that Kalambay was better than simply world class.

His splitting two with McCallum? His pair of nods over Graham? Wins over Barkely and Collins?

Superior to any Toney you ever saw? And he proved it by getting taken out in the first round? Yeah much more impressive than JT's brawl with Jirov, his thrashing of Holy and his embarassingly easy out-boxing of Ruiz
Please give me ur 20 middleweights that accomplished more? I guarantee you will put either marcel cerdan, valdez or zale on that list, what did they do that was so significant. You will probably put stanley ketchel on you list too even though his best wins are over jack o brien at 175 and ****in billy papke of all people.
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Old 10-07-2007, 07:32 PM   #101
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

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Originally Posted by brownpimp88
Please give me your 20 middleweights that accomplished more? I guarantee you will put either Marcel Cerdan, Valdez or Zale on that list, what did they do that was so significant? You will probably put Stanley Ketchel on your list too even though his best wins are over Jack O' Brien at 175 and ****in' Billy Papke of all people.
More than Kalambay or Nunn?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "****in' Billy Papke of all people" world middleweight champion?
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Old 10-07-2007, 09:50 PM   #102
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

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More than Kalambay or Nunn?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't "****in' Billy Papke of all people" world middleweight champion?
A world champ in the baby stages of boxing and in a weak era. Billy Papke is his signature win and ketchel gets regarded as a top 5-7 middleweight of all times.
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Old 10-08-2007, 12:26 PM   #103
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

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A world champ in the baby stages of boxing and in a weak era. Billy Papke is his signature win and ketchel gets regarded as a top 5-7 middleweight of all times.
And all this time I thought the baby stages of boxing were before the establishment of the London Prize Ring rules (1743)...

Is fighting still fighting? Is tough still tough? Is fast still fast? Is ten seconds still a knockout?

You think you could have whipped his [Papke's] @ss?
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Old 10-08-2007, 12:41 PM   #104
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

Best beard in boxing
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Old 10-09-2007, 03:41 AM   #105
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Default Re: Marvelous Marvin Hagler appreciation thread

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Hagler dispensing fatherly advice.
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