Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-04-2007, 10:49 PM   #196
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 12,566
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
3. 40yo versions of Holmes and Foreman better than a 30yo Tyson? OK
I think what Marciano Frazier meant was that Foreman and Holmes were competitive on a similar level as Tyson was at that point in his career, but not necessarily better or even quite as good.

Now here's my take which you can send me a laughing emoticon for when I'm through. Although I didn't consider Holmes at 40 to be on par with Tyson at 30, I certainly think that Foreman was.

Tyson had been off for 4 years between 1991 and 1995, and was showing noticable signs of deterioration upon his return. In the meantime, Foreman had stayed active and went 12 rounds with a prime Holyfield, unlike the declining Evander who Tyson was stopped by. George Ko'd a prime undefeated Michael Moorer for the lineal heavyweight title, whereas Tyson came back and fought Mcneeley, Mathis, an aging Bruno and Seldon, who looked like he took a dive by the way. Foreman did not have nearly half the problems that Tyson had going on in his life, and in fact possesed a style, power, chin and defense that would have given Tyson hell. Although I say this with no real conviction, it is not entirely out of the realm of possibility to me that had Tyson and Foreman met around 1996, George may very well have upset him.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 10-04-2007, 11:21 PM   #197
Marciano Frazier
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,469
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I think what Marciano Frazier meant was that Foreman and Holmes were competitive on a similar level as Tyson was at that point in his career, but not necessarily better or even quite as good.
Exactly. A '90s Foreman knocked out Moorer for the legitimate world chamiponship, and a '90s Holmes beat Mercer, who was one of the elite contenders of the era. Both of those wins were easily better than any win Tyson ever had post-jail, and both of those wins came after their fights with Holyfield. Hence, regardless of whether or not Foreman and Holmes could beat Tyson at that point, they were at least effectively on par with him.
Marciano Frazier is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2007, 11:31 PM   #198
Butch Coolidge
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: surrounded by stupid rednecks
Posts: 1,392
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Physics suggests Lewis would punch much harder than Marciano. You would be getting hit with a force generated from a mass about sixty pounds greater than the force generated by Marciano.

Then there's the matter of Lewis' longer arms. Ever think what principle makes a shepherd's sling and an atlatal effective weapons? They increase the leverage by increasing the length of the user's arm allowing the user to create significantly more energy in launching a rock or launching a dart than the energy they would create by simply throwing said rock or throwing said dart.
Butch Coolidge is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 12:03 AM   #199
mr. magoo
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, Illinois USA
Posts: 12,566
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Exactly. A '90s Foreman knocked out Moorer for the legitimate world chamiponship, and a '90s Holmes beat Mercer, who was one of the elite contenders of the era. Both of those wins were easily better than any win Tyson ever had post-jail, and both of those wins came after their fights with Holyfield. Hence, regardless of whether or not Foreman and Holmes could beat Tyson at that point, they were at least effectively on par with him.
As I also stated in my post, I think that the possibilty of a 90's Foreman beating a 90's Tyson is not very far fetched. Foreman had the right set of skills and power to upset and KO a declining Tyson. Of course I wouldn't put money on it, but nor would I rule it out either. I once started a whole thread on this very issue, and most of the posters thought I was nuts, but I still feel that way.
mr. magoo is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 12:11 AM   #200
Marciano Frazier
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,469
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Then there's the matter of Lewis' longer arms. Ever think what principle makes a shepherd's sling and an atlatal effective weapons? They increase the leverage by increasing the length of the user's arm allowing the user to create significantly more energy in launching a rock or launching a dart than the energy they would create by simply throwing said rock or throwing said dart.
Generating leverage from a sling or an atlatl is a much different type of motion than throwing a punch. Otherwise, the most powerful pucnh would be the biggest, widest most looping shot you could throw, which certainly isn't the case. Longer arms on a punch do not generate better punching power- in fact, many of the most powerful hitters boxing has produced have been shorter-armed men. A punch that travels six inches or a foot can be every bit as powerful as one thrown from long range.
Marciano Frazier is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 01:19 AM   #201
Butch Coolidge
Contender
ESB Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: surrounded by stupid rednecks
Posts: 1,392
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Generating leverage from a sling or an atlatl is a much different type of motion than throwing a punch. Otherwise, the most powerful pucnh would be the biggest, widest most looping shot you could throw, which certainly isn't the case. Longer arms on a punch do not generate better punching power- in fact, many of the most powerful hitters boxing has produced have been shorter-armed men. A punch that travels six inches or a foot can be every bit as powerful as one thrown from long range.
I don't know about that. There are certain mechanics that make the fundamentals the same e.g. weight shifting and arm extension.
Butch Coolidge is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 04:23 AM   #202
NickHudson
Gatekeeper
ESB Full Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 447
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

spot on! Some of Louis's and Marciano's most devastating punches were very, very short.

it reminds me of a golf swing, its amazing how far pros can hit the ball just through the timing of the wrist un****ing, without the benefit of legs, back and arms.

the longer the levers, the more exact the timing has to be to release the power at the right moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Generating leverage from a sling or an atlatl is a much different type of motion than throwing a punch. Otherwise, the most powerful pucnh would be the biggest, widest most looping shot you could throw, which certainly isn't the case. Longer arms on a punch do not generate better punching power- in fact, many of the most powerful hitters boxing has produced have been shorter-armed men. A punch that travels six inches or a foot can be every bit as powerful as one thrown from long range.
NickHudson is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 05:32 AM   #203
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,568
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch Coolidge
Physics suggests Lewis would punch much harder than Marciano. You would be getting hit with a force generated from a mass about sixty pounds greater than the force generated by
Physics suggest that Primo Carnera hit harder than Bob Satterfield but it aint so.

Forgett trying to predict punching power based on physical parameters because you won't get anywhere. Nobody ever has.

All that you can say is that larger fighters tend to hit harder in the broadest possible terms. If you try to say any more than this then you are off down a blind alley.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 06:00 AM   #204
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,632
vCash: 238
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luigi1985
I noticed it because of your good post! May I ask you in which weight class?
Welterweight.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 06:38 AM   #205
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,545
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
On Louis' opposition. He came into the Marciano fight off a victory over Jimmy Bivins. Bivins was selected as the #26 heavyweight by Ring Magazine when they selected their top fifty heavyweights back in 1998. If you check boxrec and their computer ratings, Bivins is #11 and Lee Savold #93. Defeating two top 100 guys almost back to back is not bad.
Bivins, of course, is in the Hall-of-Fame.
Bivins is no way a top 60 HW of all time. Top80, maybe. He was a great fighter but at HW, not so much. He was also a small man that was easy to handle. Savold was just average

They simply aren't in Tyson and Moorers league. The version of Tyson Holyfield beat would beat Marciano in 3-5 maybe quicker
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 06:43 AM   #206
Luigi1985
Cane Corso
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,326
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Bivins is no way a top 60 HW of all time. Top80, maybe. He was a great fighter but at HW, not so much. He was also a small man that was easy to handle. Savold was just average

They simply aren't in Tyson and Moorers league. The version of Tyson Holyfield beat would beat Marciano in 3-5 maybe quicker

You´re relying too much at your "logical" common sense instead of looking at facts...
Luigi1985 is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 07:17 AM   #207
Simply_The_Best
Undisputed Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: London
Posts: 29
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Marciano might have been able tp punch harder just about. But lewis would of knocked him out in 1-2 rounds.
Simply_The_Best is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 08:36 AM   #208
janitor
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 20,568
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simply_The_Best
Marciano might have been able tp punch harder just about. But lewis would of knocked him out in 1-2 rounds.
The lack of respect shown to Marciano on this forum is getting beyond a joke.

I highly doubt that anybody could take him out in 1-2 rounds. Least of all sombody who relied on his jab as heavily as Lewis.
janitor is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 08:42 AM   #209
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,545
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by janitor
The lack of respect shown to Marciano on this forum is getting beyond a joke.

I highly doubt that anybody could take him out in 1-2 rounds. Least of all sombody who relied on his jab as heavily as Lewis.
Its not out of the realms of possibilty that if Walcot and Moore score 1st round KDs that Lewis couldn't also score a 1st round KO and finnish the job.

Lewis was not reliant on the jab but he used it because he could win more easily with less risk. Lewis was a tactician and didnt take risks he didnt need too
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2007, 08:53 AM   #210
PowerPuncher
P4P King
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 20,545
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by cross_trainer
1. Odds are that you'll say that Grant, Ibeabuchi, and Rahman are better than the guys Louis beat...well, the rankings don't vary from era to era, so you're already assuming that Marciano's period was inferior. Which is, in part, what this thread is supposed to determine in the first place.

2. I'm not talking just about the heart attack, but every "off" night Holyfield has that he suffers some sort of ailment. And if the steroids were responsible, then we can discount the fight entirely one way or another.

3. He hadn't taken the kind of punishment Holyfield did, either. Louis looked as good against Marciano (relative to his prime) as Holyfield did against Lewis. I don't think this is that contentious a point.

4. "And let's not forgetter that Louis was better"

On paper, Holyfield and Louis are equivalent.
1. I'd go further than that and say that the steroid fiend Ike Ibeauchi would beat anyone in the 50s Marciano/Louis/Charles included. The man was a beast. Ofcourse if he wasn't such a steroid fiend he may not have beat them.

2. Well the Moorer fight is excusable - heart attack. The third Bowe fight - Hepatitis. Yes Holyfield doesnt like to admit he lost fair and square but I dont remember an excuse after the first Bowe fight. He has made more lesser excuses up for his latest losses (shoulder injury) - maybe they have an element of truth

If Holyfield was on steroids doesnt that make him a greater win for Lewis?

3. Well thats debatable - how times had Louis been down in his career.

Anyway losing to Ezzard Charles is a bad loss.

A 36yo Holyfield would beat any version of Ezzard Charles. Tyson would walk through Charles in a few rounds.

Anyway Louis had lost his hunger, achieved it all, wasnt getting another title shot anytime soon and fighting a young up and comer who even if he beat wouldnt give him any extra prestige or success

Holyfield was in a title fight - much more motivation

4. Apples and Oranges. Fights arent fought on paper and Holyfield had an ATG chin, ATG stamina and workrate
PowerPuncher is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013