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Old 10-07-2007, 11:50 AM   #331
Seamus
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by hotti_killer
If you have longer legs you have to make less strides on a track so therefore if your technique and power are as good as a shorter athlete you will beat them.
Sorry, but much smarter men have studied this and it is patently untrue.

Even Bob Hayes- regarded as the fastest ever by the cogniscenti of the sport- was a shade under 6 feet. And then there remains Leroy Burrell, Calvin Smith, Ben Johnson, Pietro Mennea and about a dozen other 6 foot and under men who broke 10 and or 20 seconds in the 100 or 200. Oh, and they all competed in the last thirty years when the planet was in fact inhabited by athletes over 6 feet.
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Old 10-07-2007, 11:50 AM   #332
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
Looking at Marciano vs. Lennox using this criteria:

1. Weight - Weight is useless unless it's backed up by greater strength and speed to accelerate it. I tend to look upon weight in and of itself as rather useless for power generation.

2. Leverage - Marciano usually put a LOT of leverage on his punches. Enough to make him vulnerable to counters, in fact.

3. Acceleration/speed of contraction - Lewis may be faster.

4. Strength - Hard to tell, since strength is often measured by the ability to move opponents around, and they didn't faced equally sized opponents (one had to push bigger guys around).




But I suspect there's some factor we're ignoring. Ali had speed/acceleration in spades, and he was clearly a very strong fighter, but he didn't hit very hard despite a great speed/strength combination.
On #3 only, Dr Paul Peck, described as a "sports physicist" wrote and article for the magazine Sports Illustrated in 1954 evaluating Ezzard Charles and Rocky Marciano physically.
He ended up saying Marciano had the physical edge as puncher because of his heavy thigh muscles, as opposed to Charles heavy chest and shoulder muscles, which he felt actually generated more power as the leg muscles are stronger and therefore drive the blow with full body weight. He concluded with ". . . Marciano's arms are unusually short, but his disadvantage in reach is offset by the great speed that charactorizes all short, well-developed muscles."
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Old 10-07-2007, 11:55 AM   #333
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

This is for the benefit of fogey and hudson read what i write before you come back with your statments, i think you only read what you want to see and then come back with an answer. If a taller athlete has equal technique and strength to a shorter althlete he will run faster as he has less strides to make. This is a fact not an estimate, so therefore if a 7ft tall sprinter had equl power and technique they would be quicker than a 6ft tall athlete. However in terms of height and size there is always a limit which stops this happening as there are no 7foot tall people who are preportioned equally to test this.
Foir cross trainer why do you keep going back to oylimpic lifting etc as an example, the largest lifters can pick up more ones than the smaller ones it does decrease in equivalence as size gets bigger but the superheavyweights are still stronger than the lighterweight lifter's.
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Old 10-07-2007, 12:05 PM   #334
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by hotti_killer
This is for the benefit of fogey and hudson read what i write before you come back with your statments, i think you only read what you want to see and then come back with an answer. If a taller athlete has equal technique and strength to a shorter althlete he will run faster as he has less strides to make. This is a fact not an estimate, so therefore if a 7ft tall sprinter had equl power and technique they would be quicker than a 6ft tall athlete. However in terms of height and size there is always a limit which stops this happening as there are no 7foot tall people who are preportioned equally to test this..
Perhaps. But you also have to consider that with longer limbs, you have to move them a larger distance, using more energy. If you blew humans up to 20 feet tall, I don't think they would be able to move as quickly unless you could give them proportionately greater strength.

But speculation is getting to extremes in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotti_killer
Foir cross trainer why do you keep going back to oylimpic lifting etc as an example, the largest lifters can pick up more ones than the smaller ones it does decrease in equivalence as size gets bigger but the superheavyweights are still stronger than the lighterweight lifter's.
Yes. But there is much less of a difference between a 185 lb. lifter and a 242 lb. lifter than you would think. Unless both Marciano and Lewis came from the top notch of their power-generating divisions, there is the possibility that Marciano hit harder. Shavers hit harder than either of them, even though he's lighter than Lewis, because he represents the absolute hardest a 210 lb. man can hit, whereas Lewis is not the hardest hitting 240 pound man.

Of course, I doubt that Marciano would hit harder than Lewis. But Dempsey just might.
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Old 10-07-2007, 12:09 PM   #335
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Which 240 pound man hits harder than lewis, just out of intrest?
As i said in my statement i know that the difference between a 185lb lifter and a 242 lb lifter isn't as great as it is at smaller weights but they still do lift more.
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Old 10-07-2007, 12:13 PM   #336
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Yet again you don't compare like with like. Heres a deal:

We both take 2 Cheetahs - both identicle twins.

Your cheetah can run round the

My Cheetah can do systematic runs over longer and shorter distances and drag cars/weights - gradually bigger cars until it gets stronger and stronger. (this is all possible you just use meat/animals as an incentive)

My Cheetah would whoop your Cheetahs ass
For boxing, any ****ogy of a cheetah sprinting is useless. A better ****ogy would be can you teach a tiger to kill? better than Nature does.

Cheetahs do seen a bit off the topic, although I guess they were brought up because Ben Johnson lost his gold for being a cheata.
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Old 10-07-2007, 12:15 PM   #337
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by hotti_killer
Which 240 pound man hits harder than lewis, just out of intrest?
As i said in my statement i know that the difference between a 185lb lifter and a 242 lb lifter isn't as great as it is at smaller weights but they still do lift more.
Boxers rely on a lot more than just power. They need technical skill, toughness, stamina, reflexes and a large variety of other characteristics. As a result, power is not evenly distributed like it is for the Olympic and powerlifting groups. Sometimes the top punchers are not the hardest. Lewis rose through the ranks because he had a variety of features, not just power.

Couldn't speak to hard-hitting 242 pound men, but 220 pound men like Tyson, Foreman and Tua appear to hit harder than Lewis. So did 210 pound Shavers, who rose solely due to his massive punching power. Perhaps W. Klitschko as well at 242-odd.
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Old 10-07-2007, 12:22 PM   #338
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

I am not sure if those guys can punch harder than lewis, when he put in the big overhand right, baring maybe tua it seemed to be harder in my opinion. How many times did tyson (baring botha but tyson wasn't 220 then)and foreman actually get clean 1 punch ko's, when lewis hit people like rahman and ruddock for the ko's those shot's seemed pretty damn hard to me.
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Old 10-07-2007, 12:56 PM   #339
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
1. Sprinting is closer to the "speed" end of the speed and strength spectrum (speed, speed-strength, explosive power, strength-speed, strength). This would indicate a greater percentage of plyometric and technical training (and sprints, long jump, and to a lesser degree hurdles fit this bill) would be helpful.

2. More importantly, 30m/40yd starts were common practice in T&F as far back as (yes, you guessed it) the 1890s.

Sources: Bompa Periodization, Sandler Sports Power, Shearman Athletics (1890's book)

3. Again, modern equipment improves sprint times a lot more than a tenth of a second. If you like, you can test this on a modern track w/starting blocks and then on dirt.
1. Sprinting is vital but increasing but using resitance training to increas strength/power is vital too. Plyometrics are good - long jump - not part of sprint training its its own event. Hurdes increase sprinting speed? Umm NOOO

2. Yes but there have been advances in sprint training - this is fact. Thats why times decrease. You do realise the world record in 1912 was only 10.6 don't you?

3. You have no evidense to support the cinder track is slower, it just fits your argument. It probably is a little slower but not more than 0.1second and top sprinters transition from cinder to modern tracks prove this. If the modern tracks were so much faster world records would have been shattered over the transitional stage, which they were not.
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Old 10-07-2007, 12:58 PM   #340
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
For boxing, any ****ogy of a cheetah sprinting is useless. A better ****ogy would be can you teach a tiger to kill? better than Nature does.

Cheetahs do seen a bit off the topic, although I guess they were brought up because Ben Johnson lost his gold for being a cheata.
Terrible

We were obviously talkign about sprinting and maximal physical performance, pay attention
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:07 PM   #341
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
1. No, I don't think that bigger fighters have the same strength as smaller fighters. I do think that there is a diminishing return in both speed and strength as a fighter gets bigger--this is borne out in scores for powerlifting and Olympic lifting.

2. I agree. But considering we DON'T have any bench/squat/deadlift/snatch/C&J stats to compare between Marciano and Lennox, we have to go on clinch strength.

3. Going on the same principle of specificity, we have ignored muscles' punching efficiency (i.e. neuromuscular coordination). Which fighter do you believe had greater coordination whilst punching?

4. Lennoc did so seldom compared to Marciano, however (throwing max power)

5. Yes, but even Ali sat down on his shots from time to time. Would his maximum-leverage shots be equal or greater to Lewis's maximum leverage shots?
1. There is a diminishing return BUT a 10%-20% increase in strength is enough to pay huge dividends in a fight. Theres only small margins between a dominant win and a loss

2. To an extent, Marciano did seem to get pushed around by bigger men a little bit and relied on constant punching inside to control ring movement and forward momentum

3. I think they both had great coordination at peak. I think Marciano had better balance )he planted his feet tighter) BUT LEnnox had better explosive motion

4. Yes Marciano threw far more of his punches near his maximal power, Lennox would use his powerpunches less often. Partly because Lennox was more cautious and calculated and partly because Marciano had better stamina

5. Even if Ali sat on a punch (very very rare), he didn't use a great deal of his body strength.

Imagine if Archie Moore (Alis original trainer) had Ali for more than a few months. He would have had him punching like Shavers (Moore protoge) - Well not quite as harder but Ali would have 1punch KO power. But then maybe he'd neglect his movement and workrate
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:12 PM   #342
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

One other point as well is that alot of athete's that don't do athletics but sports like football and american football etc could actually be quicker than the current world record holders, For instance alot of young talented sprinters in england play football instead becuase the money in sprinting even if your the best is rubbish compared to even a poor premiership footballer.
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:17 PM   #343
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
Couldn't speak to hard-hitting 242 pound men, but 220 pound men like Tyson, Foreman and Tua appear to hit harder than Lewis. So did 210 pound Shavers, who rose solely due to his massive punching power. Perhaps W. Klitschko as well at 242-odd.
Lets compare Tyson-Lewis on common opponents:

Rudduck: Lewis KOs in 2 started from 1punch in round 1 that put Rudduck out the fight. Tyson took 7 for a TKO and the full distance

Golota - Lennox had him out in 1, he quit after 2 rounds with Tyson but wasn't OUT

Bruno - Lennox couldn't get his power shots off in the fight until R7 when 1 punch turned the tide and he had Bruno out on his feet from 1shot - a barrage had the ref jumping in. Tyson in the first Bruno fight hit Bruno with over 100power shots and Bruno was hurt but he took the shots quite well. The 3rd fight Bruno was scared to death

Tucker - went the distance with both. Lennox put him down twice

Holyfield - not sure who hurt him most (Tyson did well early) but Lennox could back him up.

Botha - both starched him in 1

Biggs - went 7 with Tyson and 3 with Lewis
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:27 PM   #344
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by hotti_killer
If a taller athlete has equal technique and strength to a shorter althlete he will run faster as he has less strides to make..
Taller sprinters do not necessarily have greater stride lengths. This simply does not work in reality. Maurice Greene- the most dominant 100 meter man of the past decade is five foot nine and has an enormous stride. I remember reading some study where he completed the 100 meters in the fewest strides recorded.

Take for another example the long jump. The most dominant performer over the past decade and a half was Ivan Pedroso. All five foot nine of him. The most dominant triple jumper, Jonathon Edwards, five-eleven. High Jump, argueably Stefan Holm, five foot ten.

Common sense would lead one to believe it is all question of levers and greater forces being exerted by longer levers. Well, common sense is again all to commonly wrong.
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:28 PM   #345
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Lets compare Tyson-Lewis on common opponents:

Rudduck: Lewis KOs in 2 started from 1punch in round 1 that put Rudduck out the fight. Tyson took 7 for a TKO and the full distance

Golota - Lennox had him out in 1, he quit after 2 rounds with Tyson but wasn't OUT

Bruno - Lennox couldn't get his power shots off in the fight until R7 when 1 punch turned the tide and he had Bruno out on his feet from 1shot - a barrage had the ref jumping in. Tyson in the first Bruno fight hit Bruno with over 100power shots and Bruno was hurt but he took the shots quite well. The 3rd fight Bruno was scared to death

Tucker - went the distance with both. Lennox put him down twice

Holyfield - not sure who hurt him most (Tyson did well early) but Lennox could back him up.

Botha - both starched him in 1

Biggs - went 7 with Tyson and 3 with Lewis
I don't know who hits harder, but using this list is a flawful method to make the determination. Biggs, Bruno and Tucker were all past it against Lewis. Therefore, we can't use that as an accurate measure of any kind. The rest largely had to do with stylistic differences as opposed to just raw power being the case.

I don't know what else to ad.
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