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Old 10-03-2007, 08:28 PM   #31
Luigi1985
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by Dempsey1238
Well Marciano was consider small in his OWN era. No one though he would go as far as he did with his reach and size.

Yeah, he wasnīt that big, but I meant in contrast to todayīs relationships he was just a bit small for a HW...
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:32 PM   #32
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by Butch Coolidge
For the comparison to be fair shouldn't it be each fighter's heaviest opponents compared to each other or each fighter's lightest opponents compared to each other? I don't get the point of comparing Lewis' smallest opponents to Marciano's largest.

BTW, I think it is probably that Lewis hit much harder than Marciano. Skills being equal physics dictates greater mass will generate more power especially at the end of Lewis' long arms. That's one reason the neanderthals couldn't compete with us modern long armed people despite the neanderthals bulky strength advantage.
My logic is that the opponents then turn out to be about the same size. Otherwise, no real comparision is possible because anyone who says Lewis punches harder will simply fall back on the size of the opposition. "He fought much bigger men." So you never get anywhere in the discussion. I only tried to come up with the best comparision which the historical evidence will allow.
Obviously, the fact that Lewis is 232 and Marciano only 186 is a very important fact and I certainly would pick Lewis head to head, but I would like to probe a bit under the surface about who could punch hard and how hard in fact the smaller guys punched.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:37 PM   #33
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
You math would be too simply, power= mass * speed, otherwise fighters like Dokes would have been terrific punchers... a real puncher is born, thatīs the truth, you overrate the weight thing...
Your showing a complete miunderstanding of the science.

Mass in a punch = amount of bodyweight you can get behind a punch. Powerpunchers can get more bodyweight behind the punch. Dokes was an arm puncher and therefore did not generate as much force behind his punches.

Muscle strength creates far more mass and force behind the punch than fat/bones
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:37 PM   #34
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
Yeah, he wasnīt that big, but I meant in contrast to todayīs relationships he was just a bit small for a HW...
Well perhaps, but if we thown out the 185 pound agurment(And the Rock weight 230 about in retirement) He was about the Same size as Joe Fraizer and Mike Tyson. Both short and stocky. So its not that big of a deal imo.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:42 PM   #35
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
Yes, but I'm interested in some here and now historical proof, not mere idealogy or theory. On the other Lewis thread, Janitor held out that Dempsey punched as hard as Lewis and others just as strongly that he didn't. The only way to test anything is see what two given representatives of large and small punchers did against men of the same size.
No its called science - its fact that Lennox hit harder.

The comparison is pointless. And what if the smaller/larger men are leagues better or worse

It also ignores the fact Lennox wasn't as aggressive and didnt go for KOs as aggressively.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:42 PM   #36
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Your showing a complete miunderstanding of the science.

Mass in a punch = amount of bodyweight you can get behind a punch. Powerpunchers can get more bodyweight behind the punch. Dokes was an arm puncher and therefore did not generate as much force behind his punches.

Muscle strength creates far more mass and force behind the punch than fat/bones

I couldnīt write exactly what I mean, because my English is limited, and Iīm to lazy to look now what words I should use. Your post is right, but for describing how it is with punchers and all that, your theory-talk is not sufficient, that would be too easy, I wrote it yet. How can you explain, that I sparred big and fast guys with over 240 lbs (in shape, not fat), who didnīt punch as hard as some 210 lbs-guys? Thatīs what I mean, itīs too difficult to explain such a complex question...
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:43 PM   #37
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
No its called science - its fact that Lennox hit harder.

The comparison is pointless. And what if the smaller/larger men are leagues better or worse

It also ignores the fact Lennox wasn't as aggressive and didnt go for KOs as aggressively.




Itīs just your opinion.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:46 PM   #38
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Thatīs because Golota and Ruddock are bumbs compared to ATGīs like Charles and Walcot. Just because theyīre bigger, doesnīt automatically mean that they were better.
Walcott is an ATG, lol. He has a losing record against contenders and the fact that you called rudduck a bum is a sad joke.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:46 PM   #39
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
I couldnīt write exactly what I mean, because my English is limited, and Iīm to lazy to look now what words I should use. Your post is right, but for describing how it is with punchers and all that, your theory-talk is not sufficient, that would be too easy, I wrote it yet. How can you explain, that I sparred big and fast guys with over 240 lbs (in shape, not fat), who didnīt punch as hard as some 210 lbs-guys? Thatīs what I mean, itīs too difficult to explain such a complex question...
The 210lb fighter was either stronger, faster, had better punching technique or put more power into their punch.

A fighters strength is always vastly important. And you can get 240lb men who arent strong but Lennox was very strong by 240lb standards

I would pick Marciano to be a bigger puncher than maybe a 240lb Golota but not Lennox Lewis. Golota doesnt powerpunch like Marciano.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:50 PM   #40
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by brownpimp88
Walcott is an ATG, lol. He has a losing record against contenders and the fact that you called rudduck a bum is a sad joke.

No, itīs only a sad joke that you write one stupid post after the other. Walcott lost almost only against great fighters (Marciano, Charles, Louis, etc.), most fighters of history would lose against them. I called Ruddock a bum in contrast to Walcott, what he surely was. He was hyped up after he KOīd the total shot, old, and coked up Dokes. But when we look now at his career, he only KOīd bums and shot fighters...
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:51 PM   #41
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by Luigi1985
No, itīs only a sad joke that you write one stupid post after the other. Walcott lost almost only against great fighters (Marciano, Charles, Louis, etc.), most fighters of history would lose against them. I called Ruddock a bum in contrast to Walcott, what he surely was. He was hyped up after he KOīd the total shot, old, and coked up Dokes. But when we look now at his career, he only KOīd bums and shot fighters...
How is it a stupid post? Rex Layne beat walcott, hell elmer ray and a light heavyweight like maxim beat him too. Yet ruddock is just a bum compared to him.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:51 PM   #42
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
The 210lb fighter was either stronger, faster, had better punching technique or put more power into their punch.

A fighters strength is always vastly important. And you can get 240lb men who arent strong but Lennox was very strong by 240lb standards

I would pick Marciano to be a bigger puncher than maybe a 240lb Golota but not Lennox Lewis. Golota doesnt powerpunch like Marciano.

This is pretty much exactly what I was discussing in my first post. Dynamic strength is the same thing as explosive strength. it's the kind of strength that lets 130 pound bulgarian powerlifters press 400 lbs over their heads. it is well known that bodybuilders, who have extreme mass, do not possess the same kind of dynamic strength as powerlifters with less mass. the process for training and recruiting the two muscle fiber types is different, and explosive people are gifted with a percentage of muscle fibers that contract more quickly. you cannot increase the percentage of those fibers, but you can increase the size of slow-twich fiber.

A boxer may be 250 pounds, but certainly nothing beyond STATIC strength coming from moving that weight around says that he will punch HARDER than and explosive 200 pounder.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:51 PM   #43
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
The 210lb fighter was either stronger, faster, had better punching technique or put more power into their punch.

A fighters strength is always vastly important. And you can get 240lb men who arent strong but Lennox was very strong by 240lb standards

I would pick Marciano to be a bigger puncher than maybe a 240lb Golota but not Lennox Lewis. Golota doesnt powerpunch like Marciano.

No, it wasnīt so, otherwise it would be logical and I would have my explanation. You always try to use your "logical" common sense, right? But I tell you something, it doesnīt always go, whether how intelligent you are...
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:52 PM   #44
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
No its called science - its fact that Lennox hit harder.

The comparison is pointless. And what if the smaller/larger men are leagues better or worse

It also ignores the fact Lennox wasn't as aggressive and didnt go for KOs as aggressively.
IF is a big word, but produce proof that these ten guys Lewis was fighting were in fact better than Marciano's ten. It is just as possible Marciano's fellows could win a majority of fights if you matched them up.
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Old 10-03-2007, 08:59 PM   #45
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
No its called science - its fact that Lennox hit harder.

The comparison is pointless. And what if the smaller/larger men are leagues better or worse

It also ignores the fact Lennox wasn't as aggressive and didnt go for KOs as aggressively.
Personally I don't think the science is clear because the placement of the punch is critical. How can science measure that? What happens in the ring is the proof, not theories, scientific or otherwise.

Last edited by OLD FOGEY; 10-04-2007 at 02:41 PM.
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