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Old 10-04-2007, 09:37 AM   #76
janitor
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
This is true, my fathers 5'6, I'm 6'0, my girlfriends mother is 5'0, shes 5'8. People on average are at least 2 inches taller if not more these days. Bare in mind people probably also have denser bone structures, bigger hearts, bigger muscle etc because of better nutrition.
On the other hand I am 5'' shorter than my farther and my sister is 5'' shorter than my mother. All of our grandparents are a similar height to our parents except my paternal grandfarther who was my height. So all kinds of factors can come into play.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:42 AM   #77
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Not really most people on average are taller now than 50 years ago, this is a fact, just becuase some people are shorter doesn't change the fact that the average height is greater. Also if you look back hundreds of years the average height's where alot smaller than now as show by things like the entrance and door heights of older buildings.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:04 AM   #78
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by hotti_killer
Not really most people on average are taller now than 50 years ago, this is a fact, just becuase some people are shorter doesn't change the fact that the average height is greater. Also if you look back hundreds of years the average height's where alot smaller than now as show by things like the entrance and door heights of older buildings.
Having said that the average height in some saxon setlments was higher than that in Victorian London. Nutrition is probably the most important factor.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:16 AM   #79
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Yes I'd like to thank you for your additions they are very interesting I did not mean to sound too critical.

"Merlene Ottey" "fast twitch"
I didn't take them critically at all. I love the discussion.

I do know of Ottey. That she is that relatively low is surprising and interesting. Perhaps the most interesting thing about her career is its extreme length. she just competed at age 47 in the world championships (not a great showing, but i hope im half as fast at that age).

There may be no small correlatiion between her fiber ratio and her career length, in the end.

I think the points you bring up about body parts and how actual differences in fiber types in locales in the body is extremely interesting.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:17 AM   #80
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by janitor
On the other hand I am 5'' shorter than my farther and my sister is 5'' shorter than my mother. All of our grandparents are a similar height to our parents except my paternal grandfarther who was my height. So all kinds of factors can come into play.
Average statistics point to a gradual increase in height over the last 50years.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:22 AM   #81
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by roxyboxy
I didn't take them critically at all. I love the discussion.

I do know of Ottey. That she is that relatively low is surprising and interesting. Perhaps the most interesting thing about her career is its extreme length. she just competed at age 47 in the world championships (not a great showing, but i hope im half as fast at that age).

There may be no small correlatiion between her fiber ratio and her career length, in the end.

I think the points you bring up about body parts and how actual differences in fiber types in locales in the body is extremely interesting.
Yes the amazing thing about Ottey is I think she started in the 1980 olympics (I think it was that 1), which I think she medaled in. And I think she hit personal records around 1996. Shes seems to be the Holyfield of sprinting in that she just can't let go. She did fail a drugs test once late in her career but the lab she tested in did have issues. Its also possible to fail a drugs test from eating beef (where the cows been fed steroids)
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:57 AM   #82
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

The thing about power is that we dont really understand it. If you hope to predict it based on certain parameters of a fighter you will come away disapointed. There are no common factors of build reflexes or even punching method common to all big hitters.

If there were a way of scientificaly comparing the power of all the heavyweight champions from diferent eras then I would not be surprized if either Rocky Marciano or Lennox Lewis came out on top of the pile.

Too many oponents of little Joe Choynski said that he was the hardest hitter of his era to dismis the posibility. Who are we to tell them he wasn't?
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:08 PM   #83
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by janitor
The thing about power is that we dont really understand it. If you hope to predict it based on certain parameters of a fighter you will come away disapointed. There are no common factors of build reflexes or even punching method common to all big hitters.

If there were a way of scientificaly comparing the power of all the heavyweight champions from diferent eras then I would not be surprized if either Rocky Marciano or Lennox Lewis came out on top of the pile.

Too many oponents of little Joe Choynski said that he was the hardest hitter of his era to dismis the posibility. Who are we to tell them he wasn't?
I stand to be corrected here, but wasn't Choynski one of the three men who broke Jeffries' nose? ( Source )
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:14 PM   #84
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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I stand to be corrected here, but wasn't Choynski one of the three men who broke Jeffries' nose? ( Source )
Yes, he was.
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:34 PM   #85
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
I stand to be corrected here, but wasn't Choynski one of the three men who broke Jeffries' nose? ( Source )
Acording to Jeffries yes.

Choynski rushed out and we went at it hammer and tongs, with the crowd going wild. He fought so fast he was all over me … He convinced me that he was not only the cleverest boxer I had ever seen but also a terrific hitter. He fought so fast I could not use what skill I had to best advantage, and was taking a wonderful boxing lesson every minute. He hit me so hard he broke my nose and wedged my lip between my teeth. He drove my head so far back I thought my neck stretched a foot … During the remainder of the fight I knocked Choynski down three times but at the end of the battle [Referee] Graney called it a draw. I had no regrets. I had taken a boxing lesson from a master and an artist
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:41 PM   #86
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by janitor
Acording to Jeffries yes.

Choynski rushed out and we went at it hammer and tongs, with the crowd going wild. He fought so fast he was all over me He convinced me that he was not only the cleverest boxer I had ever seen but also a terrific hitter. He fought so fast I could not use what skill I had to best advantage, and was taking a wonderful boxing lesson every minute. He hit me so hard he broke my nose and wedged my lip between my teeth. He drove my head so far back I thought my neck stretched a foot During the remainder of the fight I knocked Choynski down three times but at the end of the battle [Referee] Graney called it a draw. I had no regrets. I had taken a boxing lesson from a master and an artist
It certainly sounds as though Jeffries received a hard learned experience from the far more seasoned Choynski. Boxrec however, reflects that Jeffries was only in his 6th ( recorded ) fight though. Nevertheless, it would seem as though Choynski was more than a formidable opponent for anyone in those days.
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:51 PM   #87
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
It certainly sounds as though Jeffries received a hard learned experience from the far more seasoned Choynski. Boxrec however, reflects that Jeffries was only in his 6th ( recorded ) fight though. Nevertheless, it would seem as though Choynski was more than a formidable opponent for anyone in those days.
He was a dangerous asignment for anybody.

Choynski esentialy had every quality you could ask for in a top heavyweight except size and durability. While these limitations prevented him from wining the title he beat an awful lot of top heavyweights much bigger than himself.
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Old 10-04-2007, 01:42 PM   #88
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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nice analysis Fogey.

I would like to point out a few things, though.

1. The only fights of Lewis (listed) that did not go the distance are Mavrovic, Holyfield and Epps. Epps was a disqualification, i don't know about the nature of that one but it's hardly fair to categorically list this as "Lewis failed to stop his opponent" as you did, while in fact it didn't go the distance. Mavrovic has an absolute iron chin and has never been floored or even hurt in 37 fights.

2. Marciano fought much more agressive because you can't stick and move and box to a decision when you're 5'10 with stubby arms. Obviously he's going to have more knockouts. Lewis went the distance with Holyfield because he focused on boxing, throwing quick combinations not focusing on power but on outlanding and did so succefully, if not for judges bought by Don King. You can see Lewis preparing exactly this strategy during sparring before this fight.

3. If we throw out the DQ on Lewis' record, there is only Mavrovic and Holyfield left who went the distance. These are extremely durable fighters, more so than Marciano's opponents. Louis was very durable although he was old. Holyfield was old too, but he had a great showing against Tyson twice a few years earlier, whereas Louis had a bad showing vs Charles a few years earlier. Holyfield went on to beat ranked contenders (in fact he's getting another title shot next week, a full 8 years later), Louis retired after his fight with Marciano.

If we look at the other two quality opponents of Marciano, then it is fair to say he did not impress at all. He looked aweful against Savold (who wasn't knocked down, by the way) and perhaps even worse against ****ell, whose 205lb is deceiving because he was fat, and he was stopped much more convingly by a middleweight.

4. To say Marciano "performed better" against that group is deceiving. Yes, he scored more knockouts. But is that performing better? His style is to score knockouts, not to outbox his opponent. Lewis had the option to outbox his opponent and have a guaranteed win without risk.
Since both Lewis and Marciano knocked out all of their "bum" opposition, let's look at the best 3 of this list and compare:

Marciano had Louis, Savold and ****ell. He impressed in the Louis bout but had the worst fights of his career against Savold and ****ell.

Lewis had Holyfield, Mavrovic and Weaver. He dominated Holyfield despite the judges' decision, won all 12 rounds against Mavrovic and knocked Weaver out with a single punch while not giving up a single round.

So i would hardly say "Marciano performed better".

5. I am not impressed by Marciano's "bigger" opposition. I will give him Louis but he was in his last fight. Savold and ****ell are nothing special and he didn't exactly roll over them. Big guys in Marciano's day were so rare that there was such a lack of talent in that weight range that they could not beat their smaller counterparts, as is evident by looking at the champions.
In Lewis' day, people grew much larger naturally and 185lb fighters have never been consistently competitive ever since and a cruiserweight division was created to make things more fair.

6. How does Marciano having knocked out more opponents than Lewis prove that Dempsey punches harder than Lewis?

7. 90% of the KO's that you are mentioning here are over mediocre opposition at best (most would call them bums). So i don't really see what this proves. I am not suprised that Marciano can knock out a 220lb unskilled fighter. As i've pointed out before, if we filter out the mediocre fighters, then the picture changes drastically in terms of how "easy" he went through them.
Your points:
1. Your point about the DQ is true, but if we moved up, we are soon going to hit the second Holyfield fight. As for Mirovic, though. What did he do except go 12 rounds with Lewis to prove he had an "iron-jaw." It is true he was never knocked out. It is also true he never fought anybody else close to being a top puncher. Could you give me a full list of the great punchers he was in with--the best has to be Cantatore. By the way, I peered through the Ring Magazine ratings and as far as I could tell, Mirovic never fought a rated fighter other than Lewis.
2. Okay, but more on this later.
3. On Louis--He hadn't been knocked out in fifteen years by anyone, period, and he had been in against almost all the tough punchers of the time. Marciano did, after all, knock him out, despite giving up 29 lbs. Lewis did not knock out Holyfield, despite a 30 lb weight advantage, in two tries.
4. Okay, these top three--Weaver was 40 years old and was stopped 12 times in 60 fights during his career. Bob Satterfield, in contrast, was stopped 13 times in 80 fights. Mirovic might have been durable, but was really untested except for Lewis. Holyfield was durable and Lewis did not stop him twice. I don't think the idea that Lewis was a "boxer" fully explains this away. He should have known not to leave it in the hands of the judges, and, if he didn't, the first fight should have taught him. The second fight was actually closer, and there are some who thought Holyfield could have gotten the nod. Right or wrong, Lewis was not able to "dominate" as you said, and despite a heavy weight advantage, let the fight go to the judges.
As for Marciano looking awful against Savold--perhaps, but Savold knew how to slip and roll with the best of them and he ended up going to the hospital. If this is looking awful, I'll take it. ****ell also got beaten into a floundering hulk by a slipping Marciano-nor was he beaten more convincingly by a peak Turpin, considered among the best p4p fighters in the world at the time. ****ell fought Turpin decently through 10, although he was losing. Turpin knocked him down twice in the eleventh and the referee stopped the fight. About the same, actually.
5. Savold defeated 14 ranked contenders in his career. ****ell defeated ten. Call them bums if you want, but I don't think even Weaver beat that many, and how many ranked contenders did Lewis' other 8 defeat? By the way, Shkor was briefly ranked, and defeated the incumbant #1 contender in 1947, Mauriello, as well as Flynn, Payne, and Brown, all rated #6 or above at one time or another. Wilson defeated one-time top ten men Scott, Mader, and Barlund. I'm not saying they are outstanding, but they are not bums either, at least in comparision to the listed Lewis opposition.
Anyway, the point is sort of foolish anyway as Lewis fought men at 192 and 194. So, lets throw out a couple of the weak Marciano opponents, such as Hardeman and Donato, and add Walcott and Layne. He still knocked them all out and he still is going to be ahead in average weight.
6. No. Marciano doing better than Lewis does not prove Dempsey punches harder than Lewis. It does provide evidence for the belief that he might.
7. One of Marciano's opponents was the best heavyweight of the 30's & 40's. Two were highly ranked contenders. A fourth actually broke into the top ten. And like I said, drop a couple of the "bums" and add Walcott and Layne. It isn't going to change anything.

And one last point on five--that people have grown bigger. Yes, but what are you trying to say? Facts critique a theory, not a theory critiques facts. I am trying to give facts. Are you trying to say that you have any proof that the 192-215 pound men of Lewis' era are better than the over 200 (or 192 & up, if you prefer) men of Marciano's era. I think you have none, so this is just ideology. "Modern guys are better and don't confuse me with facts or any contrary points of view."

Last edited by OLD FOGEY; 10-04-2007 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 10-04-2007, 02:53 PM   #89
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by JimboDs
That is not an accurate statement. Julius Caesar was 5'6", which was considered very tall at the time.

Increased height has nothing to do with evolution. We won't evolve into a larger species because it is not a necessary adaptation. Average human height stagnated for thousands of years.

The reason that human beings have gotten taller in the modern age (mainly in the last 50 years) has to do with improved nutrition, particularly nutrition at the time of infancy.
It varies over time. The earlier Middle Ages were apparently a time where much larger heights were standard--Anglo-Saxons were about the same height as modern British, and many bones have been excavated from 6'0"+ people.

In any event, evolution is not the reason for an increase in height from the 50's to today. That's hardly any time to adapt.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:09 PM   #90
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Looking into the Olympic records...

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

A few interesting things come to light.

It would appear (using the late 1980's, pre-reorganization records--little different in performance from modern records) that there is no difference in power generation ability at all between 217 pound men and 237 pound men. The modern "superheavyweights" do not--according to C&J Olympic records--hit harder than their 70's predecessors. Men over 237 pounds DO have higher poundages, but they're often obese and much larger than today's superheavies. Bringing post-reorganization stats into the fray, it appears that 207 pound men can lift about the same as the 237 pounders as well. 185 pound men lift slightly less than 237 pound men--about 10% less.

Going by these figures--IF we assume that both represented the absolute hardest a man of their size could hit, AND IF Lewis weighs the same as he did for the McCall fight--Marciano had about 90% of Lewis's power.

CONCLUSION: I don't want either of them to hit me.
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