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Old 10-04-2007, 03:21 PM   #91
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by Assassin
Charles would not last 15 rounds with Lennox Lewis.
Would Byrd?
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:35 PM   #92
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by cross_trainer
Looking into the Olympic records...

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A few interesting things come to light.

It would appear (using the late 1980's, pre-reorganization records--little different in performance from modern records) that there is no difference in power generation ability at all between 217 pound men and 237 pound men. The modern "superheavyweights" do not--according to C&J Olympic records--hit harder than their 70's predecessors. Men over 237 pounds DO have higher poundages, but they're often obese and much larger than today's superheavies. Bringing post-reorganization stats into the fray, it appears that 207 pound men can lift about the same as the 237 pounders as well. 185 pound men lift slightly less than 237 pound men--about 10% less.

Going by these figures--IF we assume that both represented the absolute hardest a man of their size could hit, AND IF Lewis weighs the same as he did for the McCall fight--Marciano had about 90% of Lewis's power.

CONCLUSION: I don't want either of them to hit me.
Very interesting, but you are assuming that both Lewis and Marciano represent the max of their respective weights--In boxing, though, so many other factors come into play. Lewis may have outperformed the other 232 pounders because he had superior defense and movement, a better chin, or more stamina. So he might not haved maxed out at his weight. If I read you right, you are saying the theoretical difference is only 10%. It is certainly not out of reason that if a Marciano, or a Dempsey or Langford, maxed out punching power at their weights, they could have made up the difference over a man of Lewis' size if Lewis in fact is not the top puncher of his weight but falls more than 10% short.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:36 PM   #93
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by Assassin
Charles would not last 15 rounds with Lennox Lewis.
When did Lewis go fifteen rounds?

Lewis never scored a knockout after the 8th round, and only three after the 6th. Charles should simply move and duck to survive the first half of the fight and maybe even to the 10th, and take Lewis in deeper than he is used to.

Last edited by OLD FOGEY; 10-04-2007 at 06:20 PM.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:53 PM   #94
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
Very interesting, but you are assuming that both Lewis and Marciano represent the max of their respective weights--In boxing, though, so many other factors come into play. Lewis may have outperformed the other 232 pounders because he had superior defense and movement, a better chin, or more stamina. So he might not haved maxed out at his weight. If I read you right, you are saying the theoretical difference is only 10%. It is certainly not out of reason that if a Marciano, or a Dempsey or Langford, maxed out punching power at their weights, they could have made up the difference over a man of Lewis' size if Lewis in fact is not the top puncher of his weight but falls more than 10% short.
Assuming the Olympic figures accurately represent the difference between boxers' punching power, it is conceivable that Marciano hit harder if Lewis represents a lower percentile of punchers.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:58 PM   #95
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Assuming the Olympic figures accurately represent the difference between boxers' punching power, it is conceivable that Marciano hit harder if Lewis represents a lower percentile of punchers.
That is the point that Janitor has argued for Dempsey and Langford, and he has gotten a lot of flak for it.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:59 PM   #96
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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That is the point that Janitor has argued for Dempsey and Langford, and he has gotten a lot of flack for it.
Langford is a smaller fighter than Dempsey, however.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:09 PM   #97
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by cross_trainer
Looking into the Olympic records...

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

A few interesting things come to light.

It would appear (using the late 1980's, pre-reorganization records--little different in performance from modern records) that there is no difference in power generation ability at all between 217 pound men and 237 pound men. The modern "superheavyweights" do not--according to C&J Olympic records--hit harder than their 70's predecessors. Men over 237 pounds DO have higher poundages, but they're often obese and much larger than today's superheavies. Bringing post-reorganization stats into the fray, it appears that 207 pound men can lift about the same as the 237 pounders as well. 185 pound men lift slightly less than 237 pound men--about 10% less.

Going by these figures--IF we assume that both represented the absolute hardest a man of their size could hit, AND IF Lewis weighs the same as he did for the McCall fight--Marciano had about 90% of Lewis's power.

CONCLUSION: I don't want either of them to hit me.
This post I actually buy except Pyrros Dimas is a P4P beast so the figures for a 180lbish man is a little misleading.

Also it doesnt take into account body mass, fist size, body weight, which contribute to a massive punch.

I'd say its a little more nearer 75-80%

Also Marciano isnt as an explosive puncher as Lennox for me. dempsey is a more explosive puncher and puts forward a better argument
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:11 PM   #98
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

ANOTHER MASSIVE POINT!!! Marciano wore much smaller gloves, which mean a greater impact and power transition
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:13 PM   #99
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Marciano biggest guys where equivalent to lewis's smallest guys, it is harder to knock out a bigger man this again is a fact. MIke tyson when slow and old couldn't dent brian mcbride or danny willimas despite hitting them with some big shots. If tyson had hit a much smaller guy with equal talent to either of those guys they would be koed, do you agree ?
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:14 PM   #100
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
This post I actually buy except Pyrros Dimas is a P4P beast so the figures for a 180lbish man is a little misleading.

Also it doesnt take into account body mass, fist size, body weight, which contribute to a massive punch.

I'd say its a little more nearer 75-80%

Also Marciano isnt as an explosive puncher as Lennox for me. dempsey is a more explosive puncher and puts forward a better argument
I would agree that Dempsey is a much better example. Marciano is more of an endurance athlete than Dempsey.

With Pyrros Dimas, I will only note that he represents the same "peak" of his talent pool as guys like Reza Zadeh do for theirs. He is a P4P phenomenon partially because his "weightclass" must be relatively more efficient.

Body mass may matter, though the same force applied to different body masses will produce the same total force output. (In other words, if Marciano was as strong as Lewis, his punching power would be the same, since Lewis would need to use more force to get his body moving in the first place). On the other hand, it does bring up the concept of leverage, which Olympic lifters don't have to deal with to the same degree.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:16 PM   #101
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Originally Posted by hotti_killer
Marciano biggest guys where equivalent to lewis's smallest guys, it is harder to knock out a bigger man this again is a fact. MIke tyson when slow and old couldn't dent brian mcbride or danny willimas despite hitting them with some big shots. If tyson had hit a much smaller guy with equal talent to either of those guys they would be koed, do you agree ?
It may hold true to some degree, but a 200 lb. Holyfield has a better chin than Vitali, Wlad, Bowe, or Lewis.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:19 PM   #102
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
This post I actually buy except Pyrros Dimas is a P4P beast so the figures for a 180lbish man is a little misleading.

Also it doesnt take into account body mass, fist size, body weight, which contribute to a massive punch.

I'd say its a little more nearer 75-80%

Also Marciano isnt as an explosive puncher as Lennox for me. dempsey is a more explosive puncher and puts forward a better argument
Marciano is well both ahead of both Lewis and Dempsey on knockout percentages no matter how you cut it--champions, contenders, men over 200 lbs, etc.
The knockouts of Layne, Louis, Matthews, and Walcott look plenty explosive to me.

Last edited by Arimi; 07-18-2006 at 12:59 PM.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:19 PM   #103
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Yes there are exception's and note i said two smaller guys with the same talent as mcbride and williams.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:21 PM   #104
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

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Yes there are exception's and note i said two smaller guys with the same talent as mcbride and williams.
Danny Williams isn't really a big guy. And if Tyson ran up against a smaller, quicker guy with the same overall talent and power as McBride, he may still have lost. In that case, it may also be a matter of Tyson specifically having the wrong style at that age for dealing with a guy like Kevin.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:21 PM   #105
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Default Re: Marciano Harder Hitter than Lennox Lewis

Also if you use the gloves as another point in mma were they user smaller gloves a knockout is quite likely even though they are allowed to grapple as well, boxing gloves are known to cushion blows and thats why people complain about brain damage etc. The gloves marciano used where alot lighter and smaller, put lewis in the same gloves and does he have faster ko's ?
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