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Old 10-04-2007, 07:46 AM   #16
TBooze
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan
Muhammad Ali, for being an American world heavyweight champion who refused to serve his country in the war against communism.
What is wrong with the Communist Manifesto? Marx had a great theory, the fact it has yet to work is more a damning inditement of us as people, than a flaw in the theory.

One day we will be mature enough for us all to be communists.

Ali had many flaws, but not wanting to go to war over economic idealogy was not one of them IMO.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:09 AM   #17
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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How many other black pro boxers in the top ten did you see go to Vietnam?
How many others were drafted?

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Do you hold the same brief for Dempsey and Willard ? who didnt serve in WW1,neither did Moran ,the results of the Vietnam conflict have vindicated Ali I think,but had he gone ,he was assured an easy time boosting troop morale,instead of which he refused and had his passport and living taken away for over three years while he awaited his appeal,ps John Wayne dodged the draft in WW2 ,and there,s a statue to him calling him a great American,still he did hate the "commies".
Some good points: Dempsey ties with Ali for dodging the draft (I'm not sure Willard was drafted, although I'm open to being enlightened). John Wayne was not a pro boxer and is therefore outside of the scope of the discussion.

I don't think one can justify exploiting a generation of young men (which Ali basically did) on the basis that the war failed. Might (or lack of it) does not make right: the fact that America failed the Vietnamese people does not vindicate those who failed America in its hour of need.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:12 AM   #18
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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What is wrong with the Communist Manifesto? Marx had a great theory, the fact it has yet to work is more a damning inditement of us as people, than a flaw in the theory.
While I won't go into detail, since this isn't a political forum, I will say that the "communism is a great idea that doesn't work in practice" is bullshit. For instance: a central point of communism is that a proletariat only needs to work about four hours to surivive; the rest of his/her hours is spent working for the profit of the capitalists. This is false, because the extra hours we work go towards our own luxury as well as the luxury of the managerial workers: this is why we're able to have these nice computers to chat over.

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Originally Posted by TBooze
One day we will be mature enough for us all to be communists.
I don't go in for prophecy, but given the history of communism, I think that's unlikely.

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Originally Posted by TBooze
Ali had many flaws, but not wanting to go to war over economic idealogy was not one of them IMO.
It's a good thing that enough men didn't have that attitude, otherwise we CERTAINLY wouldn't be having this discussion.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:15 AM   #19
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Rapists, Murderers, Wife Beaters......
Offenders only against a few people. Ali metaphorically took the American flag and the flags of free people everywhere, and the souls of all those suffering under scientific socialism, and pissed on them. To fail to recompense one's social contract with soldiers (that you'd be willing to do the same thing if necessary) is the ultimate offense to the armed forces.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:46 AM   #20
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan
Muhammad Ali, for being an American world heavyweight champion who refused to serve his country in the war against communism.

In terms of fouling in the ring, Andrew Golota and Mike Tyson are good candidates.
Yeah but Carlos Monzon who killed his wife deserves a pat on the back right?
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:50 AM   #21
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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I agree here. Luo Resto and Bob Fitzsimmons, pathetic.

Riddick Bowe is also worth mentioning

Outside of the ring, nearly every boxer was a wife beater for some reasons. The list is endless.
Did Fitz really load his gloves? I havent heard that 1.

Actually I dont come down too hard on wife beaters. Yes its shitty but its sometiems a mans last resort dysfunctional relationships. Possibly focusing on Rapists and murderers
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:51 AM   #22
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan
.
It's a good thing that enough men didn't have that attitude, otherwise we CERTAINLY wouldn't be having this discussion.
Eutopia is on the cards if we follow the Communist manifesto, that is not going to happen when we are driven by greed, and the need to be thought of better in the eyes of our peers.
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:53 AM   #23
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Offenders only against a few people. Ali metaphorically took the American flag and the flags of free people everywhere, and the souls of all those suffering under scientific socialism, and pissed on them. To fail to recompense one's social contract with soldiers (that you'd be willing to do the same thing if necessary) is the ultimate offense to the armed forces.
So you'd feel better against him if he killed a few 100 Vietkong in a pointless war that achieved nothing?

What did Ali say 'No Vietkongs tried to lynch me'? And after winning his Gold medal, he went in a cafe and had a white gang chase him and a friend and lynch them. They also wanted the Olympic Gold medal apparently.

Honestly if someone told me to go and fight in Iraq I'd try and get out of it too.

Lets not forget the other famous Vietnam draft dodger:

George W Bush - have the same opinion on him

What about Dempsey and the other draft dodgers discussed in this thread?
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Old 10-04-2007, 08:56 AM   #24
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does not vindicate those who failed America in its hour of need.
How exactly was America in need? Aren't you Scot anyway?
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:14 AM   #25
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Did Fitz really load his gloves? I havent heard that 1.
Well, it's not a certainty. He cut up Jeffries very bad in a short amount of time (despite Jeffries having improved his defense&skill). Jeffries hinted to it by his own words and Fitzsimmons threw his gloves away right after the fight.
Gloves were tiny in the first place back then though, but you can never know. Resto is a certainty though.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:28 AM   #26
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Originally Posted by TBooze
Eutopia is on the cards if we follow the Communist manifesto, that is not going to happen when we are driven by greed, and the need to be thought of better in the eyes of our peers.
How suitiable, therefore, that utopia literally means "no place".
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:34 AM   #27
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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How suitiable, therefore, that utopia literally means "no place".
Yes; if you look on the down side; if you are positive it may answer your dreams.

It is to a point an oxymoron
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:35 AM   #28
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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So you'd feel better against him if he killed a few 100 Vietkong in a pointless war that achieved nothing?
It wasn't so pointless for the millions of south-east Asians who died as a result of the domino affect. The Vietnamese, Cambodians and Lao are still suffering as a result of America's failure to practice what it preached.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
What did Ali say 'No Vietkongs tried to lynch me'? And after winning his Gold medal, he went in a cafe and had a white gang chase him and a friend and lynch them. They also wanted the Olympic Gold medal apparently.
I can't say I've ever heard that story. I do know that it wasn't white men who screwed Ali out of the fortune he made.

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Honestly if someone told me to go and fight in Iraq I'd try and get out of it too.
Well, asking the modern American youth to be conscripted for war would be in itself highly immoral. The youth of the 1960s was too soft and unpatriotic to do the job quietly, as their parents had in WWII. Considering the levels of American obsesity, there'd be hundreds of heart attacks in just basic training.

Plus, the nature of war has changed: modern armies are hi-tech and expensive per soldier, so what's needed is (relatively) small numbers of proficient elite troops. The only reason the draft keeps on coming up in modern times is a scare tactic to try and get people to vote Democrat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Lets not forget the other famous Vietnam draft dodger:

George W Bush - have the same opinion on him
I do, although I think of Ali as a better person because he had some redeeming features (such as his charitable nature and work to improve black self-confidence).

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What about Dempsey and the other draft dodgers discussed in this thread?
As I said, I forgot about Dempsey, whose draft-dodging was no less contemptible.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:35 AM   #29
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Yeah but Carlos Monzon who killed his wife deserves a pat on the back right?
Totally. That's EXACTLY what I said. In fact, I think Monzon deserves a medal and should be sanctified by the Pope.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:38 AM   #30
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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How exactly was America in need?
It was in need of troops to defend the South Vietnamese from Soviet-supported invasion. Ali, as America's alpha male (as the heavyweight champion of the world then was) would have been a big boost to troop morale. As a Muslim and a black, he'd have helped to present a united front against communism: that, whatever their differences, Americans all wanted a world that was more free and more prosperous.

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Aren't you Scot anyway?
*Looks at groin* Good god! You're right!
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