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Old 10-04-2007, 09:41 AM   #31
janitor
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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I agree here. Luo Resto and Bob Fitzsimmons, pathetic.
To be fair the loaded gloves alegation was never proven against Fitzsimmons.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:44 AM   #32
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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It was in need of troops to defend the South Vietnamese from Soviet-supported invasion. Ali, as America's alpha male (as the heavyweight champion of the world then was) would have been a big boost to troop morale. As a Muslim and a black, he'd have helped to present a united front against communism: that, whatever their differences, Americans all wanted a world that was more free and more prosperous.
I have some sympathy for Alis refusal to fight.

The draft boards were notorious for drafting young black men involved in the civil rights movment and Ali might have smelled a rat.

The outcome of the war rather vindicates anybody who refused to get involved because they thought it was pointless.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:46 AM   #33
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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I have some sympathy for Alis refusal to fight.

The draft boards were notorious for drafting young black men involved in the civil rights movment and Ali might have smelled a rat.
Then he should have complained about that, rather than attempt to undermine the rationale for the war.

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Originally Posted by janitor
The outcome of the war rather vindicates anybody who refused to get involved because they thought it was pointless.
So if the USA had never gotten involved in WWII and Hitler had dominated Europe, would it have been "pointless" for Britain to have made a stand? Does a war have to be victorious to be right?
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:50 AM   #34
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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So if the USA had never gotten involved in WWII and Hitler had dominated Europe, would it have been "pointless" for Britain to have made a stand? Does a war have to be victorious to be right?
From a selfish point of view, yes, I am 6' 4" and of the blood the Nazi's were looking for, certainly myself and my family would of been no worse off if the Nazi's had conquered Europe, indeed I would not of lost a Grandad, and a Great Grandad it what was (in a selfish way) a pointless war.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:58 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by The Kurgan
Then he should have complained about that, rather than attempt to undermine the rationale for the war.
I think he complained biterly about it.

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So if the USA had never gotten involved in WWII and Hitler had dominated Europe, would it have been "pointless" for Britain to have made a stand? Does a war have to be victorious to be right?
It has to be either indispensible or have an overwhelming prospect of sucess.
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Old 10-04-2007, 09:59 AM   #36
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From a selfish point of view, yes, I am 6' 4" and of the blood the Nazi's were looking for, certainly myself and my family would of been no worse off if the Nazi's had conquored Europe, indeed I would not of lost a Grandad, and a Great Grandad it what was (in a selfish way) a pointless war.
Yes but the GNP of the ocupied countries fell to a 10th of its pre war level. Living in these countries in 1955 would not have been fun.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:04 AM   #37
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Yes but the GNP of the ocupied countries fell to a 10th of its pre war level. Living in these countries in 1955 would not have been fun.
I am looking it form a purely selfish point of view, do not get me wrong, the Nazi's revile me, and putting some thought into it, I do have a couple of friends who are Jewish, so my life would be poorer.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:10 AM   #38
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1. It wasn't so pointless for the millions of south-east Asians who died as a result of the domino affect. The Vietnamese, Cambodians and Lao are still suffering as a result of America's failure to practice what it preached.

2. I can't say I've ever heard that story. I do know that it wasn't white men who screwed Ali out of the fortune he made.

3. Well, asking the modern American youth to be conscripted for war would be in itself highly immoral. The youth of the 1960s was too soft and unpatriotic to do the job quietly, as their parents had in WWII. Considering the levels of American obsesity, there'd be hundreds of heart attacks in just basic training.

Plus, the nature of war has changed: modern armies are hi-tech and expensive per soldier, so what's needed is (relatively) small numbers of proficient elite troops. The only reason the draft keeps on coming up in modern times is a scare tactic to try and get people to vote Democrat.

4. I do, although I think of Ali as a better person because he had some redeeming features (such as his charitable nature and work to improve black self-confidence).

As I said, I forgot about Dempsey, whose draft-dodging was no less contemptible.
1. I see your points but think your being quite harsh. I think your also ignoring the fact that American leaders start wars without thinking them through first. In retrospect the Vietnam war achieved nothing other than millions dead. Iraq has cost over a million lives. Was it worthwhile? Will it cause the problem of having a foundamentist Iraqi power structure lead by religous extremists? Quite possibly. Hence I want nothing to do with it - if it was for the greater good I may want to. An I am no fan of dictatorships or communism, Im anti-both of them

2. This is a true point Ali was screwed over by some leeching blacks but Im sure if he had more white freinds some of them would have leeched from him too The story is in 1 of Alis biographies, I think it is the first 1 of his biographies, very interesting as it has the trascript of him talking to Joe Frazier as friends about possible 'exhibition or sparing bouts' if Ali couldnt get his licence back.

3. World War 2 had a clear purpose. Vietnam did not.

4. Fair enough at least your balanced. I think Alis a good person and even if you disagree with 'draft dodging' it needs to be put into perspective of someones greater existance and the fact not going to war doesn't hurt any 1 person
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:12 AM   #39
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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I have some sympathy for Alis refusal to fight.

The draft boards were notorious for drafting young black men involved in the civil rights movment and Ali might have smelled a rat.

The outcome of the war rather vindicates anybody who refused to get involved because they thought it was pointless.
Most black political activists were given the draft. I think Ali getting the draft especially after failing initial tests is very fishy

There was no talk about 'Ali will be supporting the troops' He may have just been dumped on the front line to wipe him out. These were the days of Hoover who was looking to wipe out political black figures
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:13 AM   #40
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

Also america only got involved in ww2 after pearl harbour so for them it clearly wasn't pointless, an i don't count fiancial aid as getting involved.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:15 AM   #41
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan
So if the USA had never gotten involved in WWII and Hitler had dominated Europe, would it have been "pointless" for Britain to have made a stand? Does a war have to be victorious to be right?
Germany would have lost WW2 if the US had not got involved due to the fact they decided it was a good idea to fight on 2 fronts - Russia and Britain
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:24 AM   #42
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

in the ring rocky marciano's mauling of poor old don ****el.elbows,head and allegedly the knee in the groin were all the tools used against the game brit.outside of williard i don't think a fighter took a bigger beating in a heavyweight title fight.it was disgusting from the rock.but i still love him!
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:27 AM   #43
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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It has to be either indispensible or have an overwhelming prospect of sucess.
So ultimately it IS all about winning and not about good/evil?
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:28 AM   #44
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Germany would have lost WW2 if the US had not got involved due to the fact they decided it was a good idea to fight on 2 fronts - Russia and Britain
Debatable, but at any rate, the important thing was making a stand. After all, "All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:32 AM   #45
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

It is widely regarded by historians that the war was already won before america got involved, and as i said they helped with m,oney which was obviously good, but i don't count that as involvement.
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