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Old 10-04-2007, 10:32 AM   #46
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Debatable, but at any rate, the important thing was making a stand. After all, "All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".
Good/Evil... is that you Mr Bush?

There is no such thing my friend, in reality good and evil are works of fiction. It is purely personal perception, the Allies were fighting the good fight, but so were the Axis. It is just the victors get to write the story of the war.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:34 AM   #47
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How many others were drafted?



Some good points: Dempsey ties with Ali for dodging the draft (I'm not sure Willard was drafted, although I'm open to being enlightened). John Wayne was not a pro boxer and is therefore outside of the scope of the discussion.

I don't think one can justify exploiting a generation of young men (which Ali basically did) on the basis that the war failed. Might (or lack of it) does not make right: the fact that America failed the Vietnamese people does not vindicate those who failed America in its hour of need.
Including Bill Clinton who didnt go?
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:37 AM   #48
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I don't know if his name has already been mentioned on this thread, but Trevor Berbick was no sweetheart outside the ring.

He did everything from domestic abuse to rape, drugs, and numerous other things. He was killed about this time last year in his home town in Jamaica. He was found dead with multiple head injuries. I don't know how it happened or if they ever found his killer(s), but I'm guessing that his lifestyle and way with people didn't help.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:39 AM   #49
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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1. I see your points but think your being quite harsh. I think your also ignoring the fact that American leaders start wars without thinking them through first. In retrospect the Vietnam war achieved nothing other than millions dead. Iraq has cost over a million lives. Was it worthwhile? Will it cause the problem of having a foundamentist Iraqi power structure lead by religous extremists? Quite possibly. Hence I want nothing to do with it - if it was for the greater good I may want to. An I am no fan of dictatorships or communism, Im anti-both of them
I'm not going to try and defend the Iraq war, since I opposed it LONG before doing so became commonplace. As someone who marched the streets in protest against it before it took place, I think I've earnt at least that.

One can't judge actions of people in the past by their consequnce, because that's reading history backwards. Kennedy and Johnson didn't KNOW that the American people would be too weak to keep the war up and that the generals would be too incompetant. They did, however, know that a North Vietnamese victory meant the domino effect taking place.

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2. This is a true point Ali was screwed over by some leeching blacks but Im sure if he had more white freinds some of them would have leeched from him too The story is in 1 of Alis biographies, I think it is the first 1 of his biographies, very interesting as it has the trascript of him talking to Joe Frazier as friends about possible 'exhibition or sparing bouts' if Ali couldnt get his licence back.
I think all we can conclude from this is the somewhat obvious conclusion: some white people are good, some are dicks; some black people are good, some are dicks.

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3. World War 2 had a clear purpose. Vietnam did not.
The Vietnam war DID have a clear purpose, and it's the forgetting of this purpose that I think is the main symptom of "Vietnam guilt". The baby-boomer generation got really guilty after the mid-1970s, when they realised what they'd done to America and the world. The natural reaction was to undermine the war itself, which is why Vietnam movies were so successful: they told the draft-dodgers what they wanted to hear, and told those who answered the call that their failure meant nothing. America as a whole could be absolved of all guilt by claiming the war was pointless anyway.

The war was one of the defense of the South Vietnamese- America's ALLIES- from a communist invasion. There was further justification, ridiculed at the time but proven in hindsight, through the theory of the domino effect. This was justified, because the communist victory DID result in the rise of the Khmer Rouge, the Pathet Lao and the puppet regime in Cambodia after 1979. To this day, the Lao and the Vietnamese live under oppressive and corrupt Marxist dictators. The war also encouraged Soviet imperialism in Angola, Ethiopia and Afghanistan.

Not only did the war in Vietnam have a point, it's point was proven by history. Why is this point forgotten? Vietnam guilt.

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4. Fair enough at least your balanced. I think Alis a good person and even if you disagree with 'draft dodging' it needs to be put into perspective of someones greater existance and the fact not going to war doesn't hurt any 1 person
While I don't totally agree with you here, I agree on the most salient point: one has to be consistent and recognise goodness. Ali was, despite his disgraceful actions, a good person overall. I don't think George Bush can lay claim to that title.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:39 AM   #50
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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I don't know if his name has already been mentioned on this thread, but Trevor Berbick was no sweetheart outside the ring.

He did everything from domestic abuse to rape, drugs, and numerous other things. He was killed about this time last year in his home town in Jamaica. He was found dead with multiple head injuries. I don't know how it happened or if they ever found his killer(s), but I'm guessing that his lifestyle and way with people didn't help.
it was his nephew.he'd buried a machete in his head.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:40 AM   #51
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As Charlton Heston said in "Will Penny" after his opponent protested he had hit him on the head with a cast iron frying pan "youre the one thats down".
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:40 AM   #52
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Including Bill Clinton who didnt go?
Sure, though I'd be more offended by his widening of the rich-poor gap and generally corporatist time as President if I were an American. The fact that Clinton's time in office is seen as a golden age these days just goes to show how bad things have gotten in the last 7 years for the USA.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:42 AM   #53
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Debatable, but at any rate, the important thing was making a stand. After all, "All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".
Well your on a roll at the moment ,with the footie and the rugby!
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:45 AM   #54
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Well your on a roll at the moment ,with the footie and the rugby!
Everyone likes winning. Winning is even more fun if you don't do it often, like us.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:55 AM   #55
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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it was his nephew.he'd buried a machete in his head.
That's pretty damn brutal. Was it ever made known as to what prompted his nephew to do this?
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:57 AM   #56
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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That's pretty damn brutal. Was it ever made known as to what prompted his nephew to do this?
i think it's still ongoing.
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:03 AM   #57
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

Tyson biting off holyfields ear was pretty damn disgraceful.
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:10 AM   #58
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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That's pretty damn brutal. Was it ever made known as to what prompted his nephew to do this?
I think it was an argument over land or something.
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Old 10-04-2007, 11:54 AM   #59
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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The Vietnam war DID have a clear purpose, and it's the forgetting of this purpose that I think is the main symptom of "Vietnam guilt". The baby-boomer generation got really guilty after the mid-1970s, when they realised what they'd done to America and the world. The natural reaction was to undermine the war itself, which is why Vietnam movies were so successful: they told the draft-dodgers what they wanted to hear, and told those who answered the call that their failure meant nothing. America as a whole could be absolved of all guilt by claiming the war was pointless anyway.

The war was one of the defense of the South Vietnamese- America's ALLIES- from a communist invasion. There was further justification, ridiculed at the time but proven in hindsight, through the theory of the domino effect. This was justified, because the communist victory DID result in the rise of the Khmer Rouge, the Pathet Lao and the puppet regime in Cambodia after 1979. To this day, the Lao and the Vietnamese live under oppressive and corrupt Marxist dictators. The war also encouraged Soviet imperialism in Angola, Ethiopia and Afghanistan.

Not only did the war in Vietnam have a point, it's point was proven by history. Why is this point forgotten? Vietnam guilt.
I get the feeling that you're overstating to make for an interesting conversation, but in any event...

The Domino Theory, in general, was correct. But there are certain other factors that play into the matter.

It's not just a question of doing what's right--it's about figuring out the most effective way to do the greatest good. The amount of manpower and materiel that America expended in Vietnam (and the deaths of the Vietnamese during the war) may have been disproportionate to the threat the Soviets were making. It weakened American power to act in the future in the confrontations that it COULD win against the Soviets. Yes, the Vietnam War was justified morally, but not to the point--the amount of effort we spent in Vietnam may not have been justified, because it took away from more productive ways of beating Communism.

Ultimately, when the Soviet system DID try to expand in ever more expensive adventures (Cambodia, Laos, Angola, Ethiopia, and Afghanistan) it wore them down. When combined with the Carter/Reagan buildup, the Soviets had to back down and collapse, thus making the world a relatively cheerier place.

It's a bit like the Holy Roman / Spanish Empire during the 16th century. Sure, they were expending huge amounts of resources in promoting Catholicism, but the actions that they took were disproportionate to their resources--and Europe went Protestant even faster. That's always the trouble with ideology and international relations--you can only do so much at one time.

Your assessment of the Baby Boomers is essentially correct, though. So is your assessment of the unfitness of the current American population, although the same could be said of the UK (rather similar obesity figures) and several other Western European nations.
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Old 10-04-2007, 12:11 PM   #60
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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That's pretty damn brutal. Was it ever made known as to what prompted his nephew to do this?
Land dispute as far as I know.
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