History's most disgraceful fighter

[Duodenum]

Jack Dempsey totally redeemed himself for sitting out WW I by participating in combat at Okinawa during WW II, thus becoming the first (and to date, only) heavyweight champion eligible for internment at Arlington National Cemetery without being granted a special exemption (as was required for Joe Louis). As it happens, Jack is not buried at Arlington, but he was ultimately no more of a slacker than Barney Ross.

To me, the most disgraceful fighters are the ones most responsible for boxing's elimination from the cultural mainstream. That would be Tyson and Bowe.

[mr. magoo]

To me, the most disgraceful fighters are the ones most responsible for boxing's elimination from the cultural mainstream. That would be Tyson and Bowe.

Just out of curiosity, how exactly did Riddick Bowe contribute to the decline of Boxing in the cultural mainstream? Sure, he ducked a mandatory and publicly threw a belt in the trash, but a number of champions have passed up challengers, and some have performed gestures far more offensive. Not to mention, I think that boxing by the 90's was already losing significant popularity and interest from the general populus.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by hotti_killer

It is widely regarded by historians that the war was already won before america got involved, and as i said they helped with m,oney which was obviously good, but i don't count that as involvement.

The Russians killed 11 German troops for every one killed by Britain and America put together. They undoubtedly did most of the fighting.

The place where American involvment might have turned the tide is in terms of economic aid to Russia. While the Russians made their own tanks and other military equipment their trucks trains and and other logistic vehicles were mainly of British and American manufacture. whether or not they could have won without this aid is hard to say.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Just out of curiosity, how exactly did Riddick Bowe contribute to the decline of Boxing in the cultural mainstream? Sure, he ducked a mandatory and publicly threw a belt in the trash, but a number of champions have passed up challengers, and some have performed gestures far more offensive. Not to mention, I think that boxing by the 90's was already losing significant popularity and interest from the general populus.

True, but if Riddickulous had simply defended the title against Chinnox, he might have staunched the decline for a bit. Leon Spinks did not pitch the WBC belt in such a public gesture of contempt, nor did Holmes in relinquishing it to accept IBF recognition. (In doing so, Larry thus extended the 15 round HW championship tradition. By the way, I think Holmes deserves enormous credit for also choosing to go the 12 round route against Mercer, rather than the proposed ten round limit.)

I consider Bowe's public throwing of the belt in the trash to be tremendouly disrespectful and destructive, and would be curious to know what you consider to exceed that in the way of far more offensive conduct that has been comparably damaging to the welfare of boxing.

As I've previously discussed, I believe the elimination of the championship distance was the single most devastating blow to boxing's popularity, but there are things boxers have done to contribute to that.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by janitor

The Russians killed 11 German troops for every one killed by Britain and America put together. They undoubtedly did most of the fighting.

The place where American involvment might have turned the tide is in terms of economic aid to Russia. While the Russians made their own tanks and other military equipment their trucks trains and and other logistic vehicles were mainly of British and American manufacture. whether or not they could have won without this aid is hard to say.

i'm not so sure that I agree with Hotti Killer's claim that the war was already won before America stepped in, nor that financial resources were its only contribution.

Over the past week, I have been watching a recently filmed documentary called " The War". It was a multiple evening series that coverered nearly every aspect of the occurences and conflict of World War II. If you haven't seen it, then I highly recommend trying to either catch a replay of it on television or obtaining copies of it ( if available ).

During the tremendous escalation of the German's invasion throughout Europe, the United States sent batallion after batallian to man and cover the eastern front. There were numerous photos, films and interviews of soldiers who were in the action. At one point, the German forces breached the American front lines in what was later termed as the battle of the bulge. tens of thousands of American soldiers and local civilians were killed by the ferocious and growing influx of German troops, tanks and air rades. What's more, people were starving to death left and right, along with losing limbs to frost bite as a result of having insufficient clothing for the frozen terrain.

I have a hard time believing that the efforts of American militia, was unnecesary, given the high body count of American and German soldiers when it was all over. In short, it was a masacre on both sides. Had the United States not intervened, its quite possible that Hitler could have focussed and concentrated all of his resources defending the Eastern front against the Soviet Union, as well as possibly launching additional air attacks on England. That's not to say that he wouldn't have lost eventually, but as an American who's ancestors fought in some of these conflicts, I'm a bit insulted by those who say that the dying efforts of so many American soldiers were in vein.

[mr. magoo]

I consider Bowe's public throwing of the belt in the trash to be tremendouly disrespectful and destructive, and would be curious to know what you consider to exceed that in the way of far more offensive conduct that has been comparably damaging to the welfare of boxing.

Well, I don't know if these little tid bits surpass Bowe's "destructive" conduct of dumping a green piece of plastic in a trash can, ( perhaps a recycling bin would have been better accepted ) but let's give it the ol' college try and see what we've got Deen.

1. Carlos Monzon killing his wife

2. Don King corrupting the ratings, robbing fighters, fixing matches and turning the sport into a total circus.

3. Tyson's numerous fiasco's including a rape charge, assault and battery, and of course biting a peice of flesh out of another man's body.

4. Oliver Mccall's breaking down and crying during a world championship match.

5. Holmes claiming that Marciano couldn't carry his jock strap in the prescence of the Rock's relatives, plus his attempting to slap a suited Gerry Cooney at ringside.

6. Numerous fighters testing positive in post fight drug screenings.

7. Ali's dodging the vietnam war.

8. The Disqualification of Andrew Golata for hitting Bowe below the belt after numerous warnings, resulting in an all out riot. Then, picking up where he left off in the rematch by going for his balls again!!

Conclusion: While we can't give any one incident full credit for the public's negative view of pro boxing, we can at least conclude that there were multiple occurences of offensive and even attrocious acts of behavior that shed a bad light on the sport. Bowe's act of throwing the belt in the garbage was unacceptable and disgraceful, but I hardly think that he was a major factor in the sports decline, especially considering that the game was already hurting by 1992.

[ajohnfp]

Ike Ibeabuchi or Carlos Monzon

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

2. Don King corrupting the ratings, robbing fighters, fixing matches and turning the sport into a total circus.

Because King was the originator of all that; we all know Duva and Arum were Saints... Imagine if Rickard and co had thought up the idea of corrupting ratings, robbing fighters, fixing matches and turning the sport into a circus...

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by TBooze

Because King was the originator of all that; we all know Duva and Arum were Saints... Imagine if Rickard and co had thought up the idea of corrupting ratings, robbing fighters, fixing matches and turning the sport into a circus...

The history of promotors robbing fighters and corrupting the sport probably goes back longer than we know. The point is, King was just one of many components that contributed to the public's disenchantment with boxing.

[The Whaler]

In the ring? I guess Golota. The guy self-implodes like no one else.

McCall breaking down and crying in the ring was an embarassing moment for boxing.

Originally Posted by TBooze

Good/Evil... is that you Mr Bush?

There is no such thing my friend, in reality good and evil are works of fiction. It is purely personal perception, the Allies were fighting the good fight, but so were the Axis. It is just the victors get to write the story of the war.

So what? Yeah, good and evil is based on personal values. So what? Systematically slaughtering millions of Jews, homosexuals, and gypsies in order to create a world run by Aryans is douchebaggery of the highest order. Everyone who pulls this "there IS no good and evil" nonsense is usually a pretentious douche as well.

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

The history of promotors robbing fighters and corrupting the sport probably goes back longer than we know. The point is, King was just one of many components that contributed to the public's disenchantment with boxing.

He was a double edge sword though; without him we would not had the last great era of the sport when he work his butt off after Tyson went to jail and gave us those mega bills in the early/mid 90s...

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by TBooze

He was a double edge sword though; without him we would not had the last great era of the sport when he work his butt off after Tyson went to jail and gave us those mega bills in the early/mid 90s...

Which ones?

Holfield Douglas was promoted by Steve Wynn

Holyfield- Foreman was promoted by the Duva's

Holyfield Bowe- The Duvas and Rock Newman

Holyfiled Holmes- Duvas

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by The Whaler

So what? Yeah, good and evil is based on personal values. So what? Systematically slaughtering millions of Jews, homosexuals, and gypsies in order to create a world run by Aryans is douchebaggery of the highest order. Everyone who pulls this "there IS no good and evil" nonsense is usually a pretentious douche as well.

And slaughtering tens of thousands with an atomic bomb or in Dresden or in the stupid Falklands War or Korea or Vietnam or Iraq or indeed Afganistan makes us the good guys?

Sadly us Brits invented the concentration camp and also had a grudge with the Jews long before a Mr and Mrs Hitler had an unforgetable night in the late 19th century. Indeed despite all the hell the Jewish people have been though barely a couple of genrations ago, some have not learnt and invaded an independent country themselves.

The truth is there is no universal definition of good and evil, everybody has a different idealogy with different values that we choose to judge. It is just a little sad that sometimes our names get soiled in things we have no control over, because of unwanted peer pressure.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

That's pretty damn brutal. Was it ever made known as to what prompted his nephew to do this?

He had a domestic dispute with him ,and wanted to get his point across.

[Mendoza]

Golota, Tyson, and G. Godfrey ( 1920's and 1930's ) come to mind.