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Old 10-04-2007, 02:48 PM   #76
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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And slaughtering tens of thousands with an atomic bomb or in Dresden or in the stupid Falklands War or Korea or Vietnam or Iraq or indeed Afganistan makes us the good guys?
No. But you're certainly better than the WWII Germans. Or the Soviets, for that matter. Just like there's a difference between a soldier and a serial killer.

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Sadly us Brits invented the concentration camp and also had a grudge with the Jews long before a Mr and Mrs Hitler had an unforgetable night in the late 19th century.
As to British antisemitism, it's a big leap from bigotry to genocide. No comparison, really.

If I don't like capitalists, does that make me as evil as Stalin (who exterminated the "kulaks")?

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Indeed despite all the hell the Jewish people have been though barely a couple of genrations ago, some have not learnt and invaded an independent country themselves.
Yeah, every group is rotten sometimes. Which is quite different than "no rotten-ness exists".

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The truth is there is no universal definition of good and evil,
Correct.

But there's nothing wrong with applying a universal definition, since as you say good and evil don't exist in an objective sense. Since I happen to believe in such a universal definition, and you don't believe anything is good or evil, it isn't "wrong" by either of our standards to apply that definition on everyone.
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Old 10-04-2007, 02:51 PM   #77
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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But there's nothing wrong with applying a universal definition, since as you say good and evil don't exist in an objective sense. Since I happen to believe in such a universal definition, and you don't believe anything is good or evil, it isn't "wrong" by either of our standards to apply that definition on everyone.
I totally agree with that, you need to apply a standard to yourself and others to get by in life. But it is always going to be a personal thing, because we all have our own prejudices, and redeemable values.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:02 PM   #78
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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And slaughtering tens of thousands with an atomic bomb or in Dresden or in the stupid Falklands War or Korea or Vietnam or Iraq or indeed Afganistan makes us the good guys?
What's so stupid about the Falklands, Korean, Vietnam and Afganistan wars? They were all justified.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:05 PM   #79
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What's so stupid about the Falklands, Korean, Vietnam and Afganistan wars? They were all justified.
That is my point, that is your opinion, you have a value for right/wrong and good/evil, but it will not be the same as mine. Things like this are not black and white, but often us humans need to make it so, something we are all guilty of over many things.

I brought a shirt for under £30, I know full well that some kid slaved away making it and probably got payed less than 5p and hour. But although that angers me and to a degree makes me feel guilty, I did not seem to concerned whilst getting hammered last Friday night, on the money I saved.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:12 PM   #80
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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I totally agree with that, you need to apply a standard to yourself and others to get by in life. But it is always going to be a personal thing, because we all have our own prejudices, and redeemable values.
Okay, but if there's no good or evil, it wouldn't be "wrong" for me to force my views on everyone else, would it?
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:16 PM   #81
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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That is my point, that is your opinion, you have a value for right/wrong and good/evil, but it will not be the same as mine, things like this are black and white, but sometimes us humans need to make it so, something we are all guilty of.

Falklands, Korea, and Afganistan seem pretty justified. Only Vietnam is controversial.




Anyway, back to the topic. James Butler.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:17 PM   #82
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Falklands, Korea, and Afganistan seem pretty justified. Only Vietnam is controversial.
Albeit not to the Argentinians, North Koreans, and Afghans, respectively.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:22 PM   #83
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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And slaughtering tens of thousands with an atomic bomb or in Dresden or in the stupid Falklands War or Korea or Vietnam or Iraq or indeed Afganistan makes us the good guys?

Sadly us Brits invented the concentration camp and also had a grudge with the Jews long before a Mr and Mrs Hitler had an unforgetable night in the late 19th century. Indeed despite all the hell the Jewish people have been though barely a couple of genrations ago, some have not learnt and invaded an independent country themselves.

The truth is there is no universal definition of good and evil, everybody has a different idealogy with different values that we choose to judge. It is just a little sad that sometimes our names get soiled in things we have no control over, because of unwanted peer pressure.
The British Concentration Camp was completely different from the Nazi 1s - there wasnt murders happening in the Brit 1s

The Falklands War - protecting a British colony from being invaded by a foreign dictatorship that had no rights to the land

Atomic Bombs are questionable - but dropping the first A-Bomb and having Japan surrender would not cost as many lives as a full blown invasion would.

Seriously saying there is no Evil after watching millions being killed from the Naxi and Communist regimes is a comment only a hippy weed junky with little knowledge of the world would make
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:23 PM   #84
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Okay, but if there's no good or evil, it wouldn't be "wrong" for me to force my views on everyone else, would it?
No of course not that is to a degree what this forum is about, using your peer pressure to get your point across, and in many cases you are very good at doing it, as some people do not mind being manipulated as they have less value or control attached to that aspect of their life.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:27 PM   #85
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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No of course not that is to a degree what this forum is about, using your peer pressure to get your point across, and in many cases you are very good at doing it, as some people do not mind being manipulated as they have less value or control attached to that aspect of their life.
I'm not that attached to this forum.

Rather, I was making a point about everyday life. One cannot be both a moral relativist and decry one group applying its standards to the others.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:33 PM   #86
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Albeit not to the Argentinians, North Koreans, and Afghans, respectively.
Well the Argies deserved it! Finders keepers.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:36 PM   #87
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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The British Concentration Camp was completely different from the Nazi 1s - there wasnt murders happening in the Brit 1s
I think the Boers may beg to differ

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The Falklands War - protecting a British colony from being invaded by a foreign dictatorship that had no rights to the land
But we had little trouble with the USA and Grenada or Smith and Rhodesia...

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Atomic Bombs are questionable - but dropping the first A-Bomb and having Japan surrender would not cost as many lives as a full blown invasion would.
That depends on who's spin you listen to. Also it could be argued the USSR was very motivated to expand their nuclear arsenal because they realised that the USA was not afraid to use the weapon, thus that caused the USA to panic more themselves escalating the cold war and thousands that died because of that.

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Seriously saying there is no Evil after watching millions being killed from the Naxi and Communist regimes is a comment only a hippy weed junky with little knowledge of the world would make
Million have been killed in wars before, thousands have this year, a lot by my regime in Britain and its Allies; and yet we are good and they are evil? I do not think I am the weed smoking hippy; weed is evil anyway!
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:39 PM   #88
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Rather, I was making a point about everyday life. One cannot be both a moral relativist and decry one group applying its standards to the others.
But that is the way it is, it is a flaw of mine.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:47 PM   #89
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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I think the Boers may beg to differ
Historians generally agree that the British were not trying to kill the Boers. Rather, it was the poor state of medical knowledge at the time. Britain was not trying to wage a war of extermination, and certainly not in the same manner as the Germans in WWII.


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But we had little trouble with the USA and Grenada or Smith and Rhodesia...
At the time, maybe not. Now...


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Originally Posted by TBooze
That depends on who's spin you listen to. Also it could be argued the USSR was very motivated to expand their nuclear arsenal because they realised that the USA was not afraid to use the weapon, thus that caused the USA to panic more themselves escalating the cold war and thousands that died because of that.
There was no way the United States was responsible for the Cold War. We have committed several brutalities and blunders in the past, but the Cold War was not one of them.

As late as his death, old Joe Stalin was planning to launch a nuclear war in a few years, calculating that Russia was ready for the price and that it would destroy capitalism. He did not want peace.


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Originally Posted by TBooze
Million have been killed in wars before, thousands have this year, a lot by my regime in Britain and its Allies; and yet we are good and they are evil? I do not think I am the weed smoking hippy; weed is evil anyway!
Well, the fact that we were killing people to protect ourselves and others rather than conquer and exterminate may not be universally "good", but it certainly coincides with our own moral standards.
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Old 10-04-2007, 03:53 PM   #90
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Well, the fact that we were killing people to protect ourselves and others rather than conquer and exterminate may not be universally "good", but it certainly coincides with our own moral standards.
But that is thing, you are trying to spin that we all have the same moral standards to justify the actions of this year. You are at the very least putting us all in the same camp, when that simply is not true, in Britain and I expect the USA.
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