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Old 10-04-2007, 04:54 PM   #91
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Originally Posted by TBooze
1. I think the Boers may beg to differ

2. But we had little trouble with the USA and Grenada or Smith and Rhodesia...

3. That depends on who's spin you listen to. Also it could be argued the USSR was very motivated to expand their nuclear ****nal because they realised that the USA was not afraid to use the weapon, thus that caused the USA to panic more themselves escalating the cold war and thousands that died because of that.

4. Million have been killed in wars before, thousands have this year, a lot by my regime in Britain and its Allies; and yet we are good and they are evil? I do not think I am the weed smoking hippy; weed is evil anyway!
1. The Boers never had a genocide commited against them. The concentration camps were basically prisoner of war camps and comparing them to the Nazi death camps is a pretty ignorant comparison based on a name sake. When you look at the complete difference its MASSIVE and a poor comparison

2. You can't fight every war. 1 that is a blatant attack on British sovereinty needs stamping out. This wasnt even a war Britain started

3. Lots of things could be argued as reasons for the Cold War. A Communist dictatorship that had NO ONE TO ANSWER TO and litterally wanted to conquer the world is a bigger reason. Diplomacy on both sides was poor however

4. I was anti the war in Iraq from the offset and don't agree with it and dont defend it. The war was not a targeted genocide though, 100,000s died in collateral damage, which is awful. Bare in mind many casualtys are the fault of terrorists (who ordinary Iraqis want nothing to do with).

Iraq in the future may benefit from this war when it has democracy. If this happens in the long term things may get better
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:55 PM   #92
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I get the feeling that you're overstating to make for an interesting conversation, but in any event...

The Domino Theory, in general, was correct. But there are certain other factors that play into the matter.

It's not just a question of doing what's right--it's about figuring out the most effective way to do the greatest good. The amount of manpower and materiel that America expended in Vietnam (and the deaths of the Vietnamese during the war) may have been disproportionate to the threat the Soviets were making. It weakened American power to act in the future in the confrontations that it COULD win against the Soviets. Yes, the Vietnam War was justified morally, but not to the point--the amount of effort we spent in Vietnam may not have been justified, because it took away from more productive ways of beating Communism.

Ultimately, when the Soviet system DID try to expand in ever more expensive adventures (Cambodia, Laos, Angola, Ethiopia, and Afghanistan) it wore them down. When combined with the Carter/Reagan buildup, the Soviets had to back down and collapse, thus making the world a relatively cheerier place.

It's a bit like the Holy Roman / Spanish Empire during the 16th century. Sure, they were expending huge amounts of resources in promoting Catholicism, but the actions that they took were disproportionate to their resources--and Europe went Protestant even faster. That's always the trouble with ideology and international relations--you can only do so much at one time.
I think the problem here is that hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to say in 2007 that the expansion of the communist international movement led to its demise; however, that can have no bearing on judging the rights and wrongs of decisions made in the 1960s in my opinion.

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Your assessment of the Baby Boomers is essentially correct, though. So is your assessment of the unfitness of the current American population, although the same could be said of the UK (rather similar obesity figures) and several other Western European nations.
Absolutely. I was just highlighting the American youth because they were who was being talked about. A conscript army can be effective if it's a generation brought up in a tough environment, seasoned by manual labour from youth, using relatively cheap and simple equipment, and brought up in a context of strong communities and patriotism.

Hence why the Soviet conscripts were still effective as late as the 1970s and 1980s: many had already been working manual jobs for two years by the time they were conscripted. The Soviet education system also was much more effective in encouraging athletic activity, especially for exceptional athletes.

In the 1940s, "supporting the troops" meant giving up your wages to army relief funds, buying bonds, being willing to sign up for the army etc. etc. Having a bumper sticker would not have been considered sufficient. The standards of patriotism have changed with the increased comfort and safety of the American population, and the consequent rise of the individualist society.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:58 PM   #93
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I think the problem here is that hindsight is 20/20. It's easy to say in 2007 that the expansion of the communist international movement led to its demise; however, that can have no bearing on judging the rights and wrongs of decisions made in the 1960s in my opinion.
Agreed. But by the Tet Offensive, it was clear that further involvement in Vietnam would erode American power to a greater degree than Soviet power, thus making eventual "victory" in the Cold War more difficult.

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Absolutely. I was just highlighting the American youth because they were who was being talked about. A conscript army can be effective if it's a generation brought up in a tough environment, seasoned by manual labour from youth, using relatively cheap and simple equipment, and brought up in a context of strong communities and patriotism.

Hence why the Soviet conscripts were still effective as late as the 1970s and 1980s: many had already been working manual jobs for two years by the time they were conscripted. The Soviet education system also was much more effective in encouraging athletic activity, especially for exceptional athletes.

In the 1940s, "supporting the troops" meant giving up your wages to army relief funds, buying bonds, being willing to sign up for the army etc. etc. Having a bumper sticker would not have been considered sufficient. The standards of patriotism have changed with the increased comfort and safety of the American population, and the consequent rise of the individualist society.
Agreed again.
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Old 10-04-2007, 04:59 PM   #94
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As late as his death, old Joe Stalin was planning to launch a nuclear war in a few years, calculating that Russia was ready for the price and that it would destroy capitalism. He did not want peace.
Correct. Indeed, Khrushchev was more than willing to consider nuclear war; every left-wing student's fantasy hero, Che Guevara, was keener still, especially on dropping nukes on New York. Say what you like about the bear-like Leonid Brezhnev, but at least he worked out that nuclear war wasn't a sane option.
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:02 PM   #95
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Agreed. But by the Tet Offensive, it was clear that further involvement in Vietnam would erode American power to a greater degree than Soviet power, thus making eventual "victory" in the Cold War more difficult.
To be honest, I'm not familiar enough with the history of the war to say. Whatever failures the USA made are on its head, and will continue to be so for as long as a USA exists. It's certainly sad that the Boat People must now live in a country that doesn't even remember what brought them there.
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:02 PM   #96
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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1. The Boers never had a genocide commited against them. The concentration camps were basically prisoner of war camps and comparing them to the Nazi death camps is a pretty ignorant comparison based on a name sake. When you look at the complete difference its MASSIVE and a poor comparison
You are suggestings things I did not write, I pointed out the British invented the Concentration camp...

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Originally Posted by Powerpuncher
2. You can't fight every war. 1 that is a blatant attack on British sovereinty needs stamping out. This wasnt even a war Britain started
Especially when it turns your fortunes around and you call an election of the back of hundreds of your troops dying for an Island that is thousands of miles away and has more sheep than people. I do not agree with what Argentina did, but I also cannot understand how the Falklands can belong to Britain in this day and age.



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Iraq in the future may benefit from this war when it has democracy. If this happens in the long term things may get better
Awful lot of ifs, buts and maybes there. What I do know is that the Muslim extremists have another foot hold in the Middle East because of the actions of my country and its Allies.
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:06 PM   #97
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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You are suggestings things I did not write, I pointed out the British invented the Concentration camp....
Well, when you say "concentration camp" most people immediately think of the genocide version. Inventing the concept of temporary camps to house large numbers of people is hardly the same thing. And considering that POW camps were common long before this, it's not even against the norms of war. Genocide, on the other hand, is.


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Especially when it turns your fortunes around and you call an election of the back of hundreds of your troops dying for an Island that is thousands of miles away and has more sheep than people. I do not agree with what Argentina did, but I also cannot understand how the Falklands can belong to Britain in this day and age.
Well, it was British land. The question is whether Britain should have surrendered to an invasion. If countries do not have the right to self-defense, OK...but you should specify such beforehand.
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:09 PM   #98
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Especially when it turns your fortunes around and you call an election of the back of hundreds of your troops dying for an Island that is thousands of miles away and has more sheep than people. I do not agree with what Argentina did, but I also cannot understand how the Falklands can belong to Britain in this day and age.
Self-determination. It is the right of the people of the Falklands Islands to be British if they want; national identity should be a matter of choice. It's no different from people in Wales or Manchester wanting to be British.

Thatcher was helped by the Falklands war, but she was also helped by the fact that her economic policies worked, and by 1983 were beginning to generate an upturn in the UK economy. She saved Britain from the socialist self-destruction that we'd been marching towards for decades, and by 1978 were feeling the consequences of. As far as any non-upper class Scot can like Thatcher, I like Thatcher.
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:18 PM   #99
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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1. You are suggestings things I did not write, I pointed out the British invented the Concentration camp...

2. Especially when it turns your fortunes around and you call an election of the back of hundreds of your troops dying for an Island that is thousands of miles away and has more sheep than people. I do not agree with what Argentina did, but I also cannot understand how the Falklands can belong to Britain in this day and age.

3. Awful lot of ifs, buts and maybes there. What I do know is that the Muslim extremists have another foot hold in the Middle East because of the actions of my country and its Allies.
1. Muhammed Ali and John Ruiz are both boxers. In being boxers they are about as comparable as the British and Nazi concentration camps are unto each other

2. Again it was a war Argentina started. We just cant be seen to be getting invaded by Argentina apart from anything. And protecting the people on the island was rightous. No I dont like the fact 1000s of people died.

3. Not happy with this war as mentioned, it was a bad decision, it was wrong. It does not rank on the same level on the EVIL SCALE as Nazi Germanys crimes
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:18 PM   #100
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Self-determination. It is the right of the people of the Falklands Islands to be British if they want; national identity should be a matter of choice. It's no different from people in Wales or Manchester wanting to be British.
This I actually disagree with. Self-determination is not very important compared to the character and "virtue" of the regime that people are ruled by. People should not be free to shoot themselves in the foot, in other words. Which, getting back to the Falklands example, was the main problem with the Argentinians taking over. They were far worse than Britain.
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:18 PM   #101
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Why though?
If you mean the ear biting thing, why so hard upon him? I don't have the film to prove it, but i'm happy to asure you that Zivic and Greb are examples of fighters far far dirtier than Tyson - yet they seem to get a pass because it happened in Ye Olden times, whereas Tyson is harrassed for it.

Tyson was a looney, but most disgraceful fighter ever? I feel you need to explain.

I guess I'll pick Monzon for his conduct outside of the ring.
The ear bite is just one thing. Trying to break Botha's arm is up there. Hitting after the bell, on brake, when the fighter is down, elbowing, hitting low, rabbit punching, hitting after fight is stopped, and head butting. Also his conduct out side of the ring. Beating up old ladies, and Givens (she didn't deserve at the time it happened). Raping the girl in 91, just in December of 06, what he did again. I watched a live interview with him in November, and he kept going on about how he is a changed man now, and he is a good father. No more partying, drinking, *****s, or drugs. Sure enough a month later, he is pulled over for driving widly, and he was completely wasted, and when the cop got to his window, Tyson was shoving cocaine into hiding places in his car. He also kicked a guy in the nuts after a car wreck. Biting Lewis's leg at the press conference, all of his quotes (endless). Some of the worst are "I'll **** you till you love me" or "He's my *****" or to Lewis "I'll eat your childrens hearts out" stuff like that.
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:22 PM   #102
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Yeah but Carlos Monzon who killed his wife deserves a pat on the back right?
She probably wouldn't shut the hell up about something...
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:25 PM   #103
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easily Golota.
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:35 PM   #104
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Default Re: History's most disgraceful fighter

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Self-determination. It is the right of the people of the Falklands Islands to be British if they want; national identity should be a matter of choice. It's no different from people in Wales or Manchester wanting to be British.
I do not think with our history we can be to preachy about self determination of nations, at least wait until the generation that remembers our Empire are no more.

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Originally Posted by The Kurgan
Thatcher was helped by the Falklands war, but she was also helped by the fact that her economic policies worked, and by 1983 were beginning to generate an upturn in the UK economy. She saved Britain from the socialist self-destruction that we'd been marching towards for decades, and by 1978 were feeling the consequences of. As far as any non-upper class Scot can like Thatcher, I like Thatcher.
The economy was not working in 82/83; Foot would of got in if it were not for the Falklands IMO, and although a man with a massive flaws in communiaction, he had enough talent in his potential cabinet to give Britain the great Socialist drive it would of benefitted from, a drive that could led to a eutopia that I want.
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Old 10-04-2007, 05:37 PM   #105
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The economy was not working in 82/83; Foot would of got in if it were Falkilands IMO, and although a man with a massive flaws in communaction, he had enough talent in his potential cabinet to give Britain the great Socialist drive it would of benefitted from, a drive that could led to a eutopia that I want.
Socialism has never worked in Europe. Even in the Norse countries, it has been considerably limited and based upon capitalism. And why would it lead to Utopia, when the flaws we already discussed are still present in humanity?
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