Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history?

janitor · 02-05-2010, 03:13 PM

Reading contemporary articles it sems to me that Harry Wills was a huge figure in the boxing world while he was the top contender, but that as soon as he lost to Jack Sharkey there was a movment to talk down his career.

An article priinted in the run up to Wills Sharkey

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Sharkeys observations:

With his elbow on the mahogany counter of his establishment, Sharkey reminisced about his long fisticuffs career. He pointed out former opponents from among the photographs which clutter the walls of the Ringside. When he noticed Joe Louis' it called to mind the previous brown menace. Harry Wills.

"It was in October, 1926 that I removed Wills from the ring game. The papers were as filled with him at the time as they are today with the Brown Bomber. I was pretty busy that year. With not six weeks between that fight and my go with George Godfrey, I had to be in pretty good shape. Godfrey and Wills were the leading contenders of the day, and when I eliminated them the way was clear for Dempsey to win the championships."

The aftermath of Wills loss to Sharkey.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

mcvey · 02-05-2010, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by janitor

Reading contemporary articles it sems to me that Harry Wills was a huge figure in the boxing world while he was the top contender, but that as soon as he lost to Jack Sharkey there was a movment to talk down his career.

An article priinted in the run up to Wills Sharkey

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

Sharkeys observations:

With his elbow on the mahogany counter of his establishment, Sharkey reminisced about his long fisticuffs career. He pointed out former opponents from among the photographs which clutter the walls of the Ringside. When he noticed Joe Louis' it called to mind the previous brown menace. Harry Wills.

"It was in October, 1926 that I removed Wills from the ring game. The papers were as filled with him at the time as they are today with the Brown Bomber. I was pretty busy that year. With not six weeks between that fight and my go with George Godfrey, I had to be in pretty good shape. Godfrey and Wills were the leading contenders of the day, and when I eliminated them the way was clear for Dempsey to win the championships."

The aftermath of Wills loss to Sharkey.

[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]

This deserves to be a well posted thread .
Sharkey ,being interviewed in Heller's "In This Corner",admitted that Wills was past prime when he got to him,I just some times wonder if ,Langford,Jeanette,et al ,were not in the same boat?
Maybe ,just maybe,Wills caught some of these legends at the right time?
Comparative results with Dempsey, vis a vis, common opponents,seem to flatter Jack.

Flea Man · 02-05-2010, 04:28 PM

Hmmm......

I was of the same thought; I believed Wills to be a very respected fighter, despite his race. I didn't realise they were so out of hand to him, and I didn't realise he was perceived as a fighter that needed to be 'eliminated'.

Although to be fair, was this publication particularly extreme? Are there any other accounts that maybe paint Wills in a more favourable light?

djanders · 02-05-2010, 04:33 PM

No doubt Wills was a hell of a fighter. A good case could be made for including him in an all-time top 15 Heavyweight list. I think Dempsey would have beaten him, though it wouldn't have been an easy fight...just my opinion. I do agree that he doesn't get the credit he deserves now.

TheGreatA · 02-05-2010, 04:38 PM

The newspapers at the time seemed to be biased against Harry Wills. After he lost to Sharkey, it was felt that he had been "exposed" and that he was never any good to begin with. There were no mentions of him being close to 40 years of age.

janitor · 02-05-2010, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fleaman

Although to be fair, was this publication particularly extreme? Are there any other accounts that maybe paint Wills in a more favourable light?

Let me just say that you could have found a good few other publications like it, and perhaps the same number that contradicted it.

One thing that does strike me, is that Wills was as you say seen as a fighter who needed to be eliminated, and when he was the same papers that had seen him as a menace, moved to downgrade his career and sweep it under the carpet.

When you start learning about boxing history Wills is not a fighter you hear much about but the deeper you dig the taller he looms.

PowerPuncher · 02-05-2010, 04:57 PM

Pretty much, not many people know about Wills, he was 1 of the last top20 HWs I learned about

janitor · 02-05-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Pretty much, not many people know about Wills, he was 1 of the last top20 HWs I learned about

Me too.

Flea Man · 02-05-2010, 05:07 PM

[quote=janitor;6059299]Let me just say that you could have found a good few other publications like it, and perhaps the same number that contradicted it.

One thing that does strike me, is that Wills was as you say seen as a fighter who needed to be eliminated, and when he was the same papers that had seen him as a menace, moved to downgrade his career and sweep it under the carpet.

When you start learning about boxing history Wills is not a fighter you hear much about but the deeper you dig the taller he looms.[/quote]

Agreed. It's McGrain that got me interested in him, I saw him on his top 10 Heavy list and was like, who's that? I'd heard of Harry Wills but didn't realise how good he was, once you start reading about him, delving into his resume....impressive stuff. A lock for a top 20 Heavyweight list IMO.

janitor · 02-05-2010, 05:38 PM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcvey

This deserves to be a well posted thread .

Its getting there.

Quote:

Sharkey ,being interviewed in Heller's "In This Corner",admitted that Wills was past prime when he got to him,I just some times wonder if ,Langford,Jeanette,et al ,were not in the same boat?

Personaly I think they were, but on the other hand Wills got thrown in with them while he was quite green, early in his career.

Quote:

Comparative results with Dempsey, vis a vis, common opponents,seem to flatter Jack.

We have spilled a lot of ink on this site over whether Wills could have beaten Dempsey, and we have both come down in the Dempsey camp. I don't want to restart that debate as much as to discuss how Wills was treated by the contemporary press.

On a side note, it is almost ironic that the issue has become Dempsey defending against Wills.

In a world with no colour bar Wills would almost certainly have held the title when Dempsey was challenging for it, and then the roles are reversed.

Bokaj · 02-05-2010, 05:45 PM

It's ironic that not only contemprorary papers, but some still today use the loss to Sharkey as an argument that Wills wasn't really all that. He was one years older than Ali was when he lost to Leon "Neon" Spinks, for god's sake. 37 years was ancient back then.

janitor · 02-05-2010, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bokaj

It's ironic that not only contemprorary papers, but some still today use the loss to Sharkey as an argument that Wills wasn't really all that. He was one years older than Ali was when he lost to Leon "Neon" Spinks, for god's sake. 37 years was ancient back then.

What is interesting is that some papers assumed Dempsey had retired during his 3 year sabatical, and that made Wills almost a Jack Johnson scale threat.

he grant · 02-05-2010, 07:38 PM

Wills was a terrific fighter who defeated much better opposition than Dempsey. Eventhough he was much older, Dempsey and Team clearly ducked him ... What else is there to say except the quote from of all people John L. Sullivan .. (paraphrased) whenever the color line is drawn there is a white fighter ducking a black man ...

I give Shaqrkey credit for fighting Wills and Godfrey ... Let's keep in mind Wills was puching 37 and Sharkey was in his prime .. as far as Godfrey goes, ity was a razor close decision given to a white man in Boston in the 1920's ... I have not seen the fight but I am curious ...

Flea Man · 02-05-2010, 07:41 PM

Was Doc Kearns blacklisted for refusing to allow Dempsey to fight Wills though? Which makes me assume that if not the media than the Boxing bodies recognised his place.

Seamus · 02-05-2010, 08:04 PM

I think Wills got shafted by historical circumstances, but he was tailor made for a motivated Dempsey. Big, slow of foot, a bit plodding and ponderous. Certainly no walk in the park, but just the wrong style.

That said, a much less skilled fighter who was also big and ponderous almost ended Dempsey's reign so it was a historical injustice that he didn't get the chance to fight.

02-05-2010, 03:13 PM	#1
janitor P4P King East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 19,044 vCash: 1000	Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history? Reading contemporary articles it sems to me that Harry Wills was a huge figure in the boxing world while he was the top contender, but that as soon as he lost to Jack Sharkey there was a movment to talk down his career. An article priinted in the run up to Wills Sharkey [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Sharkeys observations: With his elbow on the mahogany counter of his establishment, Sharkey reminisced about his long fisticuffs career. He pointed out former opponents from among the photographs which clutter the walls of the Ringside. When he noticed Joe Louis' it called to mind the previous brown menace. Harry Wills. "It was in October, 1926 that I removed Wills from the ring game. The papers were as filled with him at the time as they are today with the Brown Bomber. I was pretty busy that year. With not six weeks between that fight and my go with George Godfrey, I had to be in pretty good shape. Godfrey and Wills were the leading contenders of the day, and when I eliminated them the way was clear for Dempsey to win the championships." The aftermath of Wills loss to Sharkey. [Only registered and activated users can see links. ] Last edited by janitor; 02-05-2010 at 03:35 PM.
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02-05-2010, 04:28 PM	#3
Flea Man มวยสากล East Side VIP Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: @ferociousflea Posts: 44,053 vCash: 75	Re: Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history? Hmmm...... I was of the same thought; I believed Wills to be a very respected fighter, despite his race. I didn't realise they were so out of hand to him, and I didn't realise he was perceived as a fighter that needed to be 'eliminated'. Although to be fair, was this publication particularly extreme? Are there any other accounts that maybe paint Wills in a more favourable light?
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02-05-2010, 04:33 PM	#4
djanders Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United States Posts: 1,308 vCash: 1000	Re: Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history? No doubt Wills was a hell of a fighter. A good case could be made for including him in an all-time top 15 Heavyweight list. I think Dempsey would have beaten him, though it wouldn't have been an easy fight...just my opinion. I do agree that he doesn't get the credit he deserves now.
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02-05-2010, 04:38 PM	#5
TheGreatA Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 7,116 vCash: 1000	Re: Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history? The newspapers at the time seemed to be biased against Harry Wills. After he lost to Sharkey, it was felt that he had been "exposed" and that he was never any good to begin with. There were no mentions of him being close to 40 years of age.
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02-05-2010, 04:57 PM	#7
PowerPuncher ESB Junkie East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 30,729 vCash: 1000	Re: Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history? Pretty much, not many people know about Wills, he was 1 of the last top20 HWs I learned about
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02-05-2010, 05:07 PM	#9
Flea Man มวยสากล East Side VIP Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: @ferociousflea Posts: 44,053 vCash: 75	Re: Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history? [quote=janitor;6059299]Let me just say that you could have found a good few other publications like it, and perhaps the same number that contradicted it. One thing that does strike me, is that Wills was as you say seen as a fighter who needed to be eliminated, and when he was the same papers that had seen him as a menace, moved to downgrade his career and sweep it under the carpet. When you start learning about boxing history Wills is not a fighter you hear much about but the deeper you dig the taller he looms.[/quote] Agreed. It's McGrain that got me interested in him, I saw him on his top 10 Heavy list and was like, who's that? I'd heard of Harry Wills but didn't realise how good he was, once you start reading about him, delving into his resume....impressive stuff. A lock for a top 20 Heavyweight list IMO.
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02-05-2010, 05:45 PM	#11
Bokaj Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 12,307 vCash: 1000	Re: Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history? It's ironic that not only contemprorary papers, but some still today use the loss to Sharkey as an argument that Wills wasn't really all that. He was one years older than Ali was when he lost to Leon "Neon" Spinks, for god's sake. 37 years was ancient back then.
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02-05-2010, 07:38 PM	#13
he grant Historian/Film Maker East Side Guru Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 6,476 vCash: 1000	Re: Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history? Wills was a terrific fighter who defeated much better opposition than Dempsey. Eventhough he was much older, Dempsey and Team clearly ducked him ... What else is there to say except the quote from of all people John L. Sullivan .. (paraphrased) whenever the color line is drawn there is a white fighter ducking a black man ... I give Shaqrkey credit for fighting Wills and Godfrey ... Let's keep in mind Wills was puching 37 and Sharkey was in his prime .. as far as Godfrey goes, ity was a razor close decision given to a white man in Boston in the 1920's ... I have not seen the fight but I am curious ...
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02-05-2010, 07:41 PM	#14
Flea Man มวยสากล East Side VIP Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: @ferociousflea Posts: 44,053 vCash: 75	Re: Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history? Was Doc Kearns blacklisted for refusing to allow Dempsey to fight Wills though? Which makes me assume that if not the media than the Boxing bodies recognised his place.
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02-05-2010, 08:04 PM	#15
Seamus Undisputed Champion East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Lisboa, Portugal Posts: 10,082 vCash: 1000	Re: Has Harry Wills been airbrushed out of history? I think Wills got shafted by historical circumstances, but he was tailor made for a motivated Dempsey. Big, slow of foot, a bit plodding and ponderous. Certainly no walk in the park, but just the wrong style. That said, a much less skilled fighter who was also big and ponderous almost ended Dempsey's reign so it was a historical injustice that he didn't get the chance to fight.
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