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Old 10-15-2007, 10:24 PM   #16
MSTR
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoppaZoo
Heres Mine

P4P
1. Pacquiao
2. Mayweather
3. Vazquez
4. Calzaghe
5. Hopkins
6. R.Marquez
7. Hatton
8. JM.Marquez
9. Cotto
10. Mijares

There could be cases made for
Taylor
Kessler
Mosley
and
Juan Diaz
How does Pac get number 1 spot over Floyd? That doesn't make any sense. He lost to Morales, and then beat him in the rematch coming off a woeful loss to Raheem, in which he showed definite signs of aging as a fighter. He then beat Larios, in a fashion that was less then impressive, and beat an old Barerra in far less convincing fashion then the first time they fought. Floyd has been unifying belts, getting shut out decisions and moving up multiple division in a short space of time to make the big fights, like against Oscar.
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:28 PM   #17
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

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Originally Posted by Sai
Its ****ing bullshit isnt it.

What also really irks me is that people misunderstand what P4P means. It is saying "If everyone in the world weighed exactly the same, who would be the best boxer". Not "Who has the best resume" They are totally different things.

If you are the worlds best boxer and then take 5 fights in a month against Japanese schoolgirls, your recent competition might have been shit, but you are still the worlds best boxer. Having a good resume basically just makes it easier to justify your choices of P4P ability.

This is why it is ridiculous that people can place Calzaghe outside of the top 3 just because some of his competition has been a bit iffy. This is also why it is ridiculous for people to include people who have losses in their own weight class against guys who are still active and near to the level they were when they beat them.
Great post. Good to see someone who can actually use their own analytical ability and not just rely on the dubious boxing media. I also like to judge on ability, whilst still making both resume and respective performance a large factor also. In doing so, would definitely include Dawson, Kessler and Diaz into my 10 regardless of popular belief. Calzaghe should be higher also as you said, although his sometimes mediocre performances against lessor opponents are his downfall.
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:37 AM   #18
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

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Originally Posted by MSTR
Vasquez has also lost to both Marquez and Larios also. What were your score cards against Collazo? Define most? Hatton definitely won it, the biggest contraversy was that Collazo was an unknown, and the boxing media were expecting Hatton to destroy him. Turns out he was a much better fighter then they expected. Castillo and Tszyu are bigger names then anyone on Vasquez's resume, and Hatton's last fight was an impressive stoppage victory also.
But just because you have a loss shouldnt make a dif when judging p4p, because you could be fighting p4p #1.

Most as in more than half . Hatton didnt definitely win it mate because most people thought it was a very close fight that either fighter could have been given the win on points.

Vazquez' last fight was also a impressive stoppage victory, beating a current top 20 p4p fighter. Where Castillo only just beat a b level fighter before the Hatton fight.

Look mate, we dont agree much but we both are not goin to concede...unless you think im right now

Vazquez KO Cotto/Jaun Diaz/Hatton 1
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:40 AM   #19
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
But just because you have a loss shouldnt make a dif when judging p4p, because you could be fighting p4p #1.

Most as in more than half . Hatton didnt definitely win it mate because most people thought it was a very close fight that either fighter could have been given the win on points.

Vazquez' last fight was also a impressive stoppage victory, beating a current top 20 p4p fighter. Where Castillo only just beat a b level fighter before the Hatton fight.

Look mate, we dont agree much but we both are not goin to concede...unless you think im right now

Vazquez KO Cotto/Jaun Diaz/Hatton 1
I agree with you on one thing. That I do not concede that you are right.
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:42 AM   #20
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
But just because you have a loss shouldnt make a dif when judging p4p, because you could be fighting p4p #1.

Most as in more than half . Hatton didnt definitely win it mate because most people thought it was a very close fight that either fighter could have been given the win on points.

Vazquez' last fight was also a impressive stoppage victory, beating a current top 20 p4p fighter. Where Castillo only just beat a b level fighter before the Hatton fight.

Look mate, we dont agree much but we both are not goin to concede...unless you think im right now

Vazquez KO Cotto/Jaun Diaz/Hatton 1
BTW, do a poll in the general to clarify, but a very large percentage had Hatton winning, similar to Oscar v Floyd. Castillo before the Hatton fight, regardless of his average performance before hand was still p4p top 20 no doubt. Castillo is a future HOF, and a great fighter.
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:43 AM   #21
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

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Originally Posted by MSTR
I agree with you on one thing. That I do not concede that you are right.
Thats a start.

Look mate, im a nice guy, i wont even give u a hard time when Sugar Shane smashes the living shit outta Cotto.
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:48 AM   #22
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

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Originally Posted by MSTR
BTW, do a poll in the general to clarify, but a very large percentage had Hatton winning, similar to Oscar v Floyd. Castillo before the Hatton fight, regardless of his average performance before hand was still p4p top 20 no doubt. Castillo is a future HOF, and a great fighter.
Thats not the point we are trying to find.

The point we were talkin about was Vazquez above Hatton in p4p. No point doin a poll, Vazquez would win by a mile because they (general forum) dont give Hatton much credit so it would really help us. How about we check the Ring ranking. Oh there you go Vazquez wins.
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Old 10-16-2007, 12:54 AM   #23
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

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Originally Posted by Marcus
Thats not the point we are trying to find.

The point we were talkin about was Vazquez above Hatton in p4p. No point doin a poll, Vazquez would win by a mile because they (general forum) dont give Hatton much credit so it would really help us. How about we check the Ring ranking. Oh there you go Vazquez wins.
But i don't agree at all with the Ring rating system. IMO it is quite biased, and their assesment criteria is all wrong. What I am arguing is the criteria you have used, and trying to find a reason as to why you have him placed higher. You said most people thought Collazo was the winner, so I offered to do a poll. I think you would be quite suprised at the result. You said beating a top 20 p4p opponent by stoppage, when Castillo was a top 20 guy, with recent defeats of guys like Casamayor, Diaz and Corrales. Kostya Tszyu was a top 3-4 p4p fighter at the time Hatton beat him by stoppage also. Maussa, Collazo and Urango were all world champions, not just guys CHALLENGING for the belt. Thats the difference IMO.
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Old 10-16-2007, 01:01 AM   #24
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

If you do a poll that would be cool, but i cant, dont know how to do them sorry, havent worked it out yet.
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Old 10-16-2007, 01:13 AM   #25
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

For me, PfP works entirely differently from Divisional rankings. Within a division, when guys theoretically are fighting for the same title, I value resume much more heavily.

But for PfP, I'm thinking only of where a fighter is at that given point in his career. I don't factor resume at all per se. That's why I might rank one fighter PfP but beneath a non-PfP fighter within his own division.

All that said. ...

1) Floyd Mayweather
2) Chad Dawson
3) Joe Calzaghe
4) Manny Pacquiao
5) Israel Vazquez
6) Ivan Calderon
7) Miguel Cotto
8. Ricky Hatton
9) Juan Diaz
10) Juan Manuel Marquez
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Old 10-16-2007, 01:17 AM   #26
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

Good list mate, but gee a lot of people are upping Dawson. Yeah iv seen him, he is good, but p4p #2 already is a little early IMO.
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Old 10-16-2007, 01:20 AM   #27
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

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Originally Posted by Marcus
Good list mate, but gee a lot of people are upping Dawson. Yeah iv seen him, he is good, but p4p #2 already is a little early IMO.
Ha ha. I know. It's a leap of faith based on eyeball only, and the fact that he satisfied the heart question when he picked himself up off the mat against Adamek and kicked back hard.

But if I think he can go down to 168 and defeat both Calzaghe and Kessler, plus defeat everyone (most definitely including Hopkins) at 175, I can't very well place him beneath those guys.
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Old 10-16-2007, 01:23 AM   #28
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampley
For me, PfP works entirely differently from Divisional rankings. Within a division, when guys theoretically are fighting for the same title, I value resume much more heavily.

But for PfP, I'm thinking only of where a fighter is at that given point in his career. I don't factor resume at all per se. That's why I might rank one fighter PfP but beneath a non-PfP fighter within his own division.

All that said. ...

1) Floyd Mayweather
2) Chad Dawson
3) Joe Calzaghe
4) Manny Pacquiao
5) Israel Vazquez
6) Ivan Calderon
7) Miguel Cotto
8. Ricky Hatton
9) Juan Diaz
10) Juan Manuel Marquez
Your ratings are good, mine would probably differ slightly but you are accurate by your personal opinion and method of scoring p4p which is the important thing. The point I was trying to make, was over criteria. People who put Hopkins up high do so on resume, but put Hatton down low on percieved ability, when on resume he should be higher. IMO the consistency just is not there. That is what the biggest problem with the Ring's ratings are IMO, the fact that it is so damn inconsistent. I wanted some people who put their ratings down to commit to what their criteria was, as I believe a lot of people just run off popular belief as pushed out through the boxing media. Glad to see Dawson so high in your ratings definitely agree. Joe also is another good fighter, and deserving of his spot. Manny is overated by most, so I agree with you there also. I personally think that Cotto is more talented then Vasquez, but obviously it all comes down to personal preference.
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Old 10-16-2007, 01:24 AM   #29
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

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Originally Posted by Lampley
Ha ha. I know. It's a leap of faith based on eyeball only, and the fact that he satisfied the heart question when he picked himself up off the mat against Adamek and kicked back hard.

But if I think he can go down to 168 and defeat both Calzaghe and Kessler, plus defeat everyone (most definitely including Hopkins) at 175, I can't very well place him beneath those guys.
I heard him say he might go down to 168. Man he would be even harder to beat then.

With a bit of luck to get the fight, he can knock the good eye out of Mundine shit filled head.
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Old 10-16-2007, 01:38 AM   #30
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Default Re: Top 10 Aussie P4P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
I heard him say he might go down to 168. Man he would be even harder to beat then.

With a bit of luck to get the fight, he can knock the good eye out of Mundine shit filled head.
hahaha... EelsRule would be heartbroken.
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