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Old 05-07-2013, 06:25 PM   #1
Longhhorn71
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Default Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

Could Ellis duplicate what Clay did to Liston?

Ellis would have Angie D in his corner.....and had a good straight right hand.

Would Ellis prevail...or just be a Zora Folley-type ko victim for Liston?
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Old 05-07-2013, 09:57 PM   #2
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

No I don't think he could.

He may box well for a couple of rounds but even Clay/Ali got hit with some heavy, crisp shots {in the first fight}. Liston`s jab may stun Ellis who I don't believe had the physical strength to handle Liston.
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Old 05-07-2013, 10:12 PM   #3
mr. magoo
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

I don't think Ellis has a chance to be truthful. I'm guessing this one ends pretty quickly
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Old 05-07-2013, 11:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
I don't think Ellis has a chance to be truthful. I'm guessing this one ends pretty quickly
That's the way I'm seeing it too. Liston was 35-1 and considered close to indestructible until Ali.

Liston seems to be one of the most underrated fighters on this forum.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:04 AM   #5
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

Ellis gets flattened. He may have a degree of success with his assertiveness, but once Liston uncoils, he'll make solid contact and that will be it.

Ellis got too close for too long and too busy against the wrong fighters to think he would do otherwise with Liston.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:48 AM   #6
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

ellis was a former fragile middle weight so yes liston could stop him like he did with patterson, liston just proved his power against small guys or average bums, never against full sized very good hws, so yes,the former middle weight clay´s sparring partner would get stopped by the quitter ugly bear
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:57 AM   #7
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

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Originally Posted by The Spider View Post
That's the way I'm seeing it too. Liston was 35-1 and considered close to indestructible until Ali.

Liston seems to be one of the most underrated fighters on this forum.

Liston was past his prime by 1964. But I still think he was capable of beating just about any of the top heavyweights, with the obvious exception of Muhammad Ali. I'm also thinking that even the washed up 1969 version of Liston who lost to Leotis Martin would still have a 50/50 chance at Ellis, though by that point I wouldn't have bet on it. Jimmy could fight and did especially well at heavyweight for a man who began his professional career as a middle. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that at his best ( probably around 1968-1970 ) Ellis would have given a slightly faded 1964 Sonny a few rounds of competition.. But that long jab of Sonny's and brutal punching power was still there even at that stage.. I don't think Jimmy could find anywhere to hide.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Longhhorn71 View Post
Could Ellis duplicate what Clay did to Liston?

Ellis would have Angie D in his corner.....and had a good straight right hand.

Would Ellis prevail...or just be a Zora Folley-type ko victim for Liston?

Sonny catches him after the first few rounds. Jimmy not strong enough to beat Liston.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:06 PM   #9
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

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Originally Posted by The Spider View Post
That's the way I'm seeing it too. Liston was 35-1 and considered close to indestructible until Ali.

Liston seems to be one of the most underrated fighters on this forum.
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Old 05-08-2013, 01:50 PM   #10
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

Best case scenario is that prime Jimmy is not going to successfully exchange jabs with 1964 Sonny at distance, despite the superior speed of Ellis. An aged Liston dominated Leotis Martin until fading abruptly, and shut out competent young boxer Henry Clark despite huffing and puffing towards the end. Even in arguably his greatest performance, Ellis was noticeably tiring towards the end with a surging Bonavena.

Jimmy started fast and well in Frazier I, and started quickly in general, while I think Sonny's somewhat overrated as a fast starter [benefiting tremendously from what is actually misleading footage against Patterson, Bethea, Harris and Westphal]. He was certainly capable of charging out the gate, but he wasn't Tyson, Shavers or Dempsey in this respect. This isn't a blowout for Liston, but something which has a chance to develop further with Dundee providing strategy for Ellis.

Unfortunately for prime Jimmy, I think what develops against 1964 Liston is a conservative jabbing chess match, which Sonny wins in a surprisingly dull and leisurely decision. Ellis has neither the power to hurt him, or the stamina to gas him, when all Liston needs to do is pump his jab. Put it in Louisville, and it still doesn't matter. The crowd would not dispute the UD for Sonny.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:13 PM   #11
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

Posters seem to be posting a 'prime' matchup. The thread says '64'. Jimmy was a bloated MW at that time. Nuf said.
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Old 05-08-2013, 05:54 PM   #12
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

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Originally Posted by jowcol View Post
Posters seem to be posting a 'prime' matchup. The thread says '64'. Jimmy was a bloated MW at that time. Nuf said.


This is the title of the thread:

Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

Ellis was prime at heavyweight around 1968 or 69. Now we do the " nuf said" bit.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:14 PM   #13
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
Liston was past his prime by 1964. But I still think he was capable of beating just about any of the top heavyweights, with the obvious exception of Muhammad Ali. I'm also thinking that even the washed up 1969 version of Liston who lost to Leotis Martin would still have a 50/50 chance at Ellis, though by that point I wouldn't have bet on it. Jimmy could fight and did especially well at heavyweight for a man who began his professional career as a middle. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that at his best ( probably around 1968-1970 ) Ellis would have given a slightly faded 1964 Sonny a few rounds of competition.. But that long jab of Sonny's and brutal punching power was still there even at that stage.. I don't think Jimmy could find anywhere to hide.
I think you have agreed with my post in a round-about fashion. When it appeared you were initially looking to disagree with it
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:17 PM   #14
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
This is the title of the thread:

Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

Ellis was prime at heavyweight around 1968 or 69. Now we do the " nuf said" bit.
Thanks magoo. That being said, I think a prime 69 Jimmy would defeat a wasted, tho still dangerous, Sonny.
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:18 PM   #15
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Default Re: Prime Jimmy Ellis vs Sonny Liston (1964 version)

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Originally Posted by The Spider View Post
When it appeared you were initially looking to disagree with it
Nah, Just elaborating.
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