Ron Lyle...

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by The Kurgan

It doesn't, but of course that wasn't the point I made. If you'd seen him fight, you'd know the Bugner fight was stopped not as a result of Lyle's power, but a cut. If you'd seen him fight, you'd have known that Lyle didn't plant his feet for most of the Shavers fight, and by the time he did Lyle was already tired. That was what I was addressing.

Indeed i haven't seen the Bugner fight but it only makes my argument stronger if it was stopped on a cut.

I have seen the Shavers-Lyle fight a few years ago and from my memory they fought in the pocket most of the time, so i don't see how he did not plant his feet except when he was knocked down, of course.

I know this is well below par for you. Considering (a) your avatar, and (b) your knowledge of boxing, you should know this statement is utter bullshit.

Maybe i was overreacting, but what i said about the Ali-Lyle fight is true, although indeed it is irrelevant in the discussing Lyle's power. I will rewatch some of his fights when i get home.

[The Kurgan]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Indeed i haven't seen the Bugner fight but it only makes my argument stronger if it was stopped on a cut.

I have seen the Shavers-Lyle fight a few years ago and from my memory they fought in the pocket most of the time, so i don't see how he did not plant his feet except when he was knocked down, of course.

He was either moving on his feet or throwing arm-punchers. Lyle didn't start to load up until the 5th and 6th.

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Maybe i was overreacting, but what i said about the Ali-Lyle fight is true, although indeed it is irrelevant in the discussing Lyle's power. I will rewatch some of his fights when i get home.

???

Ali-Liston II?

Ali-Bonavena?

Your point is incorrect.

[littleguy]

I watched the Lyle-Bugner fight live. It went the full 12 rounds and Lyle won a close decision. Bugner was asleep for most of the fight. Lyle threw mostly body shots and Bugner just soaked them up.

Lyle never stopped Bugner. What are you guys talking about?

[JohnThomas1]

Originally Posted by The Kurgan

No, Quarry's power is underrated. Put Quarry in with the Foreman of 1976, and Quarry could knock Big George spark out. Even in their primes, Quarry's power would be a risk for Foreman (or anyone). Quarry may have had circus-small arms, but they were like cougar magnums: small, but powerful. It's strange, because you never see Quarry on any "hardest hitter" lists, yet when he planted his feet he hit like a mule.

Gil Clancy would agree, he says Quarry is the best "natural" puncher he ever worked with. That's some praise when we factor in George Foreman for starters.

[ChrisPontius]

Originally Posted by The Kurgan

He was either moving on his feet or throwing arm-punchers. Lyle didn't start to load up until the 5th and 6th.

Alright, i will rewatch the fight.

???

Ali-Liston II?

Ali-Bonavena?

Your point is incorrect.

We all know the second Liston fight was a phoney. Bonavena was not winning the fight when Ali started knocking him down, whereas Lyle was ahead, hence he was put out of the fight from winning to losing with one punch.

[The Kurgan]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

We all know the second Liston fight was a phoney.

There has never been conclusive proof. All we can tell is that Ali hit Liston with one punch that kept him down.

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Bonavena was not winning the fight when Ali started knocking him down, whereas Lyle was ahead, hence he was put out of the fight from winning to losing with one punch.

Ah, but Bonavena was still in the fight. It should also be noted that Bonavena went down, while Lyle stayed up and took countless punches without going down. I think it was as much related to exhaustion as Ali's power.

[The Kurgan]

Originally Posted by littleguy

I watched the Lyle-Bugner fight live. It went the full 12 rounds and Lyle won a close decision. Bugner was asleep for most of the fight. Lyle threw mostly body shots and Bugner just soaked them up.

Lyle never stopped Bugner. What are you guys talking about?

I could have sworn Bugner was stopped on the cuts. Then again, it was a long time since I saw that fight. However, I do remember Bugner made a fight of it.

[Mendoza]

Lyle was an all time contender who fought most of the best fighters in the 1970's. I tend to view him as an all time top 50 heavyweight. If Lyle didn’t fight in the 1970's when Ali and Foreman were around OR started boxing a bit earlier, he could have achieved greater acclaim.

One little known fact about Lyle was he was part of a professional boxing league where USA cities sent teams to fight each other. Lyle was the team heavyweight for Denver Rocks. Intersting concept.

[AnthonyJ74]

What really stands out for me about Lyle is his physique. He had a massive frame, and his shoulders were huge! Just looking at him and Foreman together in the ring, Lyle gave the appearance of a sturdier, stronger specimen. And Lyle impressed me more in the Foreman fight than did Foreman. Foreman was lucky to win that fight; Lyle could have easily come out the winner if one of the rounds were a little longer. In the end, I think he went down more from exhaustion than from any of Foreman's punches.

[Blacc Jesus]

Guys, could you give me your top 10 hardest hitters during the 70's?

[young griffo]

Originally Posted by The Kurgan

I could have sworn Bugner was stopped on the cuts. Then again, it was a long time since I saw that fight. However, I do remember Bugner made a fight of it.

You might be getting it mixed up with Bugner-Shavers where Joe was stopped on a cut early.This was only a couple of fights after the Lyle match.

[jowcol]

Let's go back to this Quarry power for a moment; someone said most of Lyle's big wins were decisions. I always loved Jerry; I saw many of his most memorable fights live on TV/closed circuit way back when.
But IMHO, his punching power was OVER-rated. When he took someone out, it was with a series of punches not this one-punch stuff. Lyle hit harder than Quarry, plain and simple. No way does Quarry deck Foreman at any point in their career; no way does Quarry stand a chance against Foreman at any point in his career.
How about Jerry in his big fights; Patterson stood up to him twice and might have won both fights in some eyes. Ellis beat him; he decisioned Buster Mathias, he decisioned Lyle; he hit Frazier with his best Sunday shots and Joe never flinched. The Shavers fight, in my mind, remains a strange anonmoly; they fight again, surely a much, much, different fight. Mac Foster? A good one but that big puncher's ONLY big wins were against has-beens. Took Jerry all of 12 rounds to wear down the vastly overrated Thad Spencer. Check out journeyman Joe Alexander's KD of Jerry in early 74; that punch from Joe may have been harder than anything Jerry ever threw.
I don't mean to be hard on Jerry; I just think, all in all, that he is over-rated on this forum in some areas particularly in the power department.
HOF for sure but he was not able to knock out any of the top contenders save a green Shavers and that fight still seems strange to me with repeated viewings...
My $0.02

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by Blacc Jesus

Guys, could you give me your top 10 hardest hitters during the 70's?

This is of course extremely subjective, and I'm certain to revise it extensively if redoing it again. The one selection I strongly hold to is at the top of my list. (To punctuate just how strongly I believe in that choice, check out my second pick!)

1) Earnie Shavers
2) Blank (I think Shavers was that far ahead of the rest of the pack.)
3) Sonny Liston (Because the final bout of his career was his 1970 win over Wepner, who rated Sonny's power over Foreman's, even then.)
4) George Foreman (He rang Chuvalo's bell, and had Ali pissing blood for three days.)
5) Ron Lyle (Ron floored the granite chinned Foreman early twice, and nearly knocked him out. The only reason I haven't tied Lyle with Foreman is because of George's greater consistency in stopping his opponents. But if Lyle chose to "swing for the rafters" the way Foreman usually did, then who knows? Big George said after his second career was over that Lyle hit him the hardest of any of his opponents.)
6) Mac Foster
7) Jerry Quarry (Monstrous right hand against Bodell. Outslugged Shavers, beat up Foster and Spencer, and floored Mathis in just the second round, putting the big man in survival mode for the remaining ten rounds. Ali made sure Quarry couldn't reach him at all, just as Muhammad did Cleveland Williams. Jerry knocked Norton halfway across the ring to the ropes with a first round bodyshot. Decked Foreman in sparring.)
8) Gerrie Coetzee (If his right didn't get broken, watch out! But power concentrated mainly in that one hand.)
9) Kallie Knoetze (Norton and Tate caught the slow starting Bobick cold. Duane had no such excuse against Knoetze. Like his "sworn enemy" Coetzee, power mostly from the right side.)
10) Joe Frazier (Three huge left hooks establish his position as an elite puncher from my perspective. The final shot when he unified the heavyweight title against Ellis, the knee buckling shot he caught Ali against the ropes with in round 11 of the FOTC, and the one downstairs which sank Quarry to the floor in their rematch.)

Honorable mention (In no particular order): Bonavena, Norton, Stander (made Frazier prove he could win when conceding territory), Cleveland Williams (finished his career during this decade), Roy Williams (possibly the most avoided contender of his era), Duane Bobick (Dropped rugged Scott Ledoux twice in their rematch. In the Frenchman's very next bout, he would draw with soon-to-be Ali conquerer Leon Spinks. Bobick floored Larry Holmes as an amateur. Could be very dangerous if let out of the first couple rounds.)

Gerry Cooney (In revising this, I might well place Gerry in the top ten. He dropped Dino Dennis before the decade ended.) Muhammad Ali (His left hook against Ringo was a wrecking ball. The hardest right hand of his career floored Foreman for the count, something nobody else ever came close to doing to George. He beat down Wepner hard enough to have Chuck down for the count. Had somewhat sensitive hands which required novocaine injections before he used his fists, but cound be deadly when he loaded up with bad intentions.) Jimmy Ellis (The day after his first match with Frazier, Quarry named Ellis as the harder puncher of the two. Ellis did drop Bonavena twice, decked Boone Kirkman in the first round, and took out Leotis Martin in the previous decade.)

Larry Holmes (During this decade, Larry scored a one punch knockout with a right cross to Tomato Evangelista's neck. Though Evangelista's entire 78 bout career, only three other opponents would take him out: Leon Spinks in his career best performance, Greg Page at his undefeated peak, and Anders Eklund at the end of Tomato's career. Holmes also flattened and took out undefeated future WBA CW champion Ossie Ocasio with his jab, looking a good deal more like Liston than Ali in the process. Finally, it was during this decade that Larry secured his title defense win over Weaver with a single right uppercut. Shortly, Hercules would stand up to everything Big John Tate and Coetzee could dish out into the championship rounds. Holmes had a lot of arm problems which compromised his power against Norton, as well as later in his career, but started his long reign by stopping his first eight title challengers.)

[jowcol]

Well, he certainly didn't knock out any more top contenders than Quarry did.
(THAT'S MY POINT; QUARRY NEVER KNOCKED OUT THE TOP CONTENDERS; HE DIDN'T HAVE THAT OVERWHELMING POWER THAT SO MANY CLAIM HE HAD.)

Except in sparring.
(I KEEP HEARING THIS QUARRY/FOREMAN SPARRING SESSION; DID IT EVER HAPPEN? WHEN? LATE 68? EARLY 69?)

Very ignorant, considering Quarry was at his best against the big punchers. (FAIR ENOUGH, THEN LET'S START WITH FRAZIER WHO WASN'T NEAR GEORGE IN THE POWER DEPT. FOREMAN WOULD HAVE ANNILIATED QUARRY.)

The same guy that you're arguing that had better punching power. Quarry beat him easily. (BECAUSE JERRY COULD TAKE A MUCH BETTER PUNCH)

Probably because Joe was an ATG at the top of his form.
(YOUR DESCRIBING TO A T WHO FOREMAN WAS AT THE TIME YOU SEE JERRY BEATING HIM)

Well, you just called him a good one. Quarry finished him in about 6.
(HOW REALLY GOOD WAS FOSTER?; CHECK HIS RECORD, IS THERE ANY TOP CONTENDER THAT HE BEAT THAT WASN'T BORN IN THE JURASSIC AGE?)

How is Spencer overrated? Barely anybody knows who he is. He was coming off the Terrell win, at least. (WELL, SOMEHOW THE WBA HAD HIM THE #1 CONTENDER WHEN THE 67 ELIMINATION TOURNEY CAME ALONG WHICH WE ALL FOUND ODD CONSIDERING THAD'S RECORD COMING INTO IT.)

This was when Quarry was on his freefall decline.(BARELY 60 DAYS
AFTER THE SHAVERS BOUT.)

Green Shavers? He had about 50 fights at that point. I believe Shavers was actually rated higher than Quarry when Jerry dusted him in one. And what are you suggesting that's strange? That Shavers threw the fight or something? I seem to recall he landed one or two really hard shots at least, but Quarry had the chin to take them. And then whipped his ass quickly. (GREEN TO THE POINT THAT HE HADN'T AS OF YET BEEN TESTED BY A TOP CONTENDER.)

Not trying to be confrontational Thad, just feel I'm spot on about this.
How so many out there see a 73 Quarry beating a 73 Foreman just boggles my mind...

[jowcol]

Originally Posted by Thad Spencer

Styles make fights.

Quarry came to fight, he came to slug; he couldn't box a lick unless
he was in against some journeyman; even Chuvalo was jabbing him.
Foreman might even start out jabbing Quarry; punches would be landed from both sides and early on Jerry's going to take a hell of a punch or punches, he would be hurt, he may well split wide open as well. A pre-Ali Foreman (before his brain and common sense were fried by the Ali-psyche) would have destroyed Ron Lyle inside of two one-sided rounds IMHO).
Repeat: NO WAY Quarry stands a chance against a prime George. You're right, styles make fights and Quarry's style just aint' workin' against big George.
If you continue to disagree with me, then it's just a matter of agreeing to disagree and we move on. I've always looked at this mythical matchup as a no brainer and I can't see any logic that would indicate otherwise.

best wishes;
j