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Old 02-19-2010, 08:34 AM   #16
flamengo
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Seems a bit harsh.

Sullivan had his faults as a man but he was not evil.
And A.H was no comedian. Appologies to anyone offended at the mention of his name.

Maybe harsh Janitor, although plenty was left unfulfilled or never tested by John L. as Champion.
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Old 02-19-2010, 08:58 AM   #17
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

Over

Tyson
Lewis
Marciano (to a far lesser extent though)

Under

Johnson
Schmeling
Tunney
Sharkey
Holyfield
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:37 AM   #18
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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John L Sullivan in under-rated by all except a few specialists.

Bob Fitzsimmons is highly regarded but he is under-rated as a heavyweight.

Jim Jeffries is under-rated by all except a few specialists.

Jess Willard is verry under-rated by many.

Jack Dempsey was over-rated for a long time but he is verry under-rated here.

Jack Sharkey is verry under-rated by most. There are dimensions to his resume that people just dont see.

Primo Carnera is verry under-rated by the average boxing fan, but we are starting to see a ballence view here.

Jersey Joe Walcott. Again, there are dimensions to his resume that people just dont see.

Joe Frazier has never really escaped from the ominous shaddow of George Foreman.
you are right about several fighters here. I for one never really paid much attention to the bare knuckle days but was impressed with Sullivan, Dempsey loved Sullivan as a boy and started training as a boy to be like him.

Dempsey is very low on this site and penalized for being inactive like most of the Champions before him. However Jack Dempsey took it to another level and for the last 70 yrs is still mentioned with the greats of the century and Jack was tough and hard, he was raised in a time when America was just like him. The fame Dempsey acheived without TV and cable is amazing. Dempsey was such a big star offers came in from movie makers and other areas but remember Jack was a 1st and had no examples before him.

J.J. Walcott was a master boxer with excellent feet, pin point one punch power in both hands and a Wiley ...he would wreck many a great heavyweights plans on one of his special nights. He proved it many times vs the best ever.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:52 AM   #19
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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In my opinion .........

Max Schmeling
I have always felt that Max Schmeling is underrated. I always take into consideration that Louis was still developing when Max beat him, but he also has many other wins to speak of, that I think are forgotten. For all practical purposes, he is a true all time great, and a cornerstone figure among the classic greats.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:28 AM   #20
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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I have always felt that Max Schmeling is underrated. I always take into consideration that Louis was still developing when Max beat him, but he also has many other wins to speak of, that I think are forgotten. For all practical purposes, he is a true all time great, and a cornerstone figure among the classic greats.

I agree and Max also fought through personal hardships and was not always best prepared but not due to a lack in discipline
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:36 AM   #21
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

I think Tommy Burns is a good mention for underrated, as is Tunney.

Tyson I think is rated by most about where I have him. Inside the top 15, and possibly in the lower end of the top 10. I think his "peak ability" is overstated a bit though. His was magnificent BUT so were most of the top 15 all-times when they were at their bests. The Tyson hype and excitement (originally due to his youthful age and the void he filled in the division) tends to convince even some reasonable-minded people here that he must have been something like invincible for at least some brief period of his prime.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:43 AM   #22
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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I think Tommy Burns is a good mention for underrated, as is Tunney.

Tyson I think is rated by most about where I have him. Inside the top 15, and possibly in the lower end of the top 10. I think his "peak ability" is overstated a bit though. His was magnificent BUT so were most of the top 15 all-times when they were at their bests. The Tyson hype and excitement (originally due to his youthful age and the void he filled in the division) tends to convince even some reasonable-minded people here that he must have been something like invincible for at least some brief period of his prime.
We can make excuses for Holmes being out shape and Spinks being too small, scared shitless, whatever, but has any heavyweight in history won his most decisive fights in such convincing destructive manner? It could be said Tyson at his best was even more "tuned" against the better fighters he faced. Holmes and Spinks represented big fights for Tyson personally with their boxing bloodline, Berbick was for the record of youngest champion. Just looking at from the other side of the fence. Tysons accomplishments have him well placed inside the top 10-15, but I think he is a bit underated as to how good he was at his fighting peak.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:46 AM   #23
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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I agree and Max also fought through personal hardships and was not always best prepared but not due to a lack in discipline

On a sidnote, Schmeling has one of the more interesting stories to speak of. Upon losing to Louis in the rematch, Hitler forced him to join the German armed forces. After the war ended, he purchased a bottling company and later became a multi-millioniare. He apparently attended Joe Louis's funeral in 1981, and from what I've been told, made a large contribution towards the payment of the service. Max lived until he was within months of turning 100 years old, when he died in 2005... The man had a very long, successful and interesting life...
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:54 AM   #24
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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We can make excuses for Holmes being out shape and Spinks being too small, scared shitless, whatever, but has any heavyweight in history won his most decisive fights in such convincing destructive manner?
Yes, some have. And many of those who did not actually got their most significant victories over better fighters. Hell, one or two even beat better fighters just as convincingly and destructively (Foreman, for example).

Quote:
It could be said Tyson at his best was even more "tuned" against the better fighters he faced. Holmes and Spinks represented big fights for Tyson personally with their boxing bloodline, Berbick was for the record of youngest champion. Just looking at from the other side of the fence. Tysons accomplishments have him well placed inside the top 10-15, but I think he is a bit underated as to how good he was at his fighting peak.
Well he was good enough to knock out Spinks, Holmes and Berbick in a total of under 7 rounds, I dont dispute that.
Tyson was a dangerous early-rounds KO artist, one of the best.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:59 AM   #25
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

Yes, my point though, was that there was three of them all ending more spectacularly than the other. According to most now that Tysons career is over and judging by how he finished up, he would have never had a shot against the likes of Holyfield and lewis at his best.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:20 AM   #26
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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Yes, my point though, was that there was three of them all ending more spectacularly than the other. According to most now that Tysons career is over and judging by how he finished up, he would have never had a shot against the likes of Holyfield and lewis at his best.
I dont think he'd beat Holyfield, prime for prime.
I can see him beating Lewis though.

The thing is, I never bought into the "Tyson unbeatable" myth at the time, and thought he had flaws all along, as did many commentators and some were expressing those thoughts between all the hyperbole.
True enough, there may be a trend among some sections to swing the other way in the last 10 years and say Tyson was never as good as he clearly was. I think he was very good in his prime but I think it gets overstated. Holyfield, Frazier, Holmes etc. were also consistently very good in their primes too but we dont hear as much focus on that, and have a more balanced or even negatively-focused discussion of them.

I think Buster Douglas is such an otherwise unremarkable fighter and Tyson's fall from grace inside and outside the ring so public and dramatic, that the old hyperbole gets re-hashed a bit too readily to counter the negatives.

Tyson was so exciting and explosive that he had everyone talking boxing back in 1988, and remained box-office magic until the pitiful end. That's to his credit. Just like Dempsey for older generations, the man on the street of a certain age thinks Tyson was literally invincible, and I see shades of that reflected in the way some of his supporters talk here, even if it's subtle.
But as you and I have already noted there's plenty of distorted versions of him at the other extreme too. I guess in another decade or so both extremes will disappear and opinions will be more balanced.
(Having said that, I rate him around the same place on the lists most others have him, so I suppose I'm just nit-picking about the way people express their perceptions.)
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:51 AM   #27
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

Underrated HW Champs :

Michael Moorer-This guy would present problems for almost any HW in history IF he brought his A-game. That laser beam left was as good a punch as Hearns' right. The overall package wasn't nearly as good though.

Larry Holmes-He's already been covered enough in this forum. The guy's a top 5 all time HW. Enough said.
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:35 PM   #28
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

Underrated: Sinan Şamil Sam
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:29 PM   #29
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

Overrated:
Lennox Lewis
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Jack Johnson
George Foreman
Sonny Liston

Underrated:
Evander Holyfield
Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:48 PM   #30
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

Just wondering, those who say Tyson and/or Holyfield are underrated and Lewis is overrated, do you rate one or both ahead of Lewis?
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