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Old 02-19-2010, 02:59 PM   #31
lefthook31
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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Originally Posted by BoxingFanNo1 View Post
Just wondering, those who say Tyson and/or Holyfield are underrated and Lewis is overrated, do you rate one or both ahead of Lewis?
Evander
Tyson
Lewis
There is a case for Lewis being over Tyson, but personally I dont rank him higher.
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Old 02-19-2010, 03:01 PM   #32
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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On a sidnote, Schmeling has one of the more interesting stories to speak of. Upon losing to Louis in the rematch, Hitler forced him to join the German armed forces. After the war ended, he purchased a bottling company and later became a multi-millioniare. He apparently attended Joe Louis's funeral in 1981, and from what I've been told, made a large contribution towards the payment of the service. Max lived until he was within months of turning 100 years old, when he died in 2005... The man had a very long, successful and interesting life...
This is very short, there is so much more about him. He defied Hitler more than once, rescued quite a few people during he nazi regime. After the war he was successful with two own companies before taking over Coca Cola. After his wife died in the seventies he became a workaholic, driving 70-80 kms to his office and working 10-12 hours a day even when he was past 90. He was the biggest voluntary donator in Germany of his time. He also helped out Louis before he died and paid some of Langfords medical bills.
Not the best hw of all time but probably the best person who fought at hw.
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Old 02-19-2010, 03:04 PM   #33
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

Lewis is both, it just depends who you talk to.
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Old 02-19-2010, 04:33 PM   #34
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

Overrated: Liston, Tyson

Underrated: Walcott, Tunney
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Old 02-19-2010, 07:21 PM   #35
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

most over rated 1.ridick bowe 2. sonny liston 3. mike tyson, 4 ali after foreman 74-78.
most under rated !,joe frazier, primo carnera, ezzard charles, max schmeling, lennox lewis. mike tyson (yes, he makes both lists. in the future he will become more fashionable as listion is now)
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Old 02-19-2010, 08:40 PM   #36
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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You're joking???
Pretty much. It pertains to another thread. I'm not insane.
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Old 02-19-2010, 08:50 PM   #37
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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Pretty much. It pertains to another thread. I'm not insane.

Pisser mate.. Had me wondering WTF??? lol.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:41 PM   #38
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

Overrated

Tyson and Liston

Liston is moving up on my heavyweight list though. I used to have him about 11 or 12. Now I have him about 6 or 7. Most have him in their top 5 and while he was a great champion I just can't put him up there with Jack Johnson or Lennox Lewis.

Underrated

Evander Holyfield and Max Schmelling

People talk about Holyfield being inconsistent as his major flaw but between 1985 and 1998 Holyfield lost a total of 3 fights. That is far from inconsistent considering the level of competation. Barring the first Moorer fight I thought he came prepared every time. He was sick for the 3rd Bowe fight. Holyfield is #8 all time on my heavyweight list. Ahead of Frazier, Foreman and Tyson.

Schmelling was a great fighter in his own right and had a pretty deep resmue for the time period. Fought most of the top competation and had very solid skills. His only knock was he did come in unprepared a few times and his cost him. He is still a top 20 lock for me though. Maybe top 15.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:55 PM   #39
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

The only overrated Heavyweight in my mind is Lennox Lewis. Don't get me wrong, I thought he was a fine and effective fighter who's a nightmare matchup for any ATG HW in any era, but I see people putting him #3 or #4 below Ali and Louis and I think its quite ridiculous.

His resume was padded with some decent wins but his two best known ones were a pst prime Mike Tyson that a Journeyman like Kevin Mcbride could of clobbered and Evander Holyfield - even though holyfield was quite past his best I thought it was quite impressive how he took such a good lead in points.

Other than that I place Ali, Louis, Holmes, Johnson, Marciano, Dempsey, Foreman and Frazier above him...although I'd put him above Tyson, Holyfield, and perhaps Liston for good measure.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:05 PM   #40
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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In my opinion .........

Overrated :

Sonny Liston (For all his strengths, he wouldn't make my top 10).

Lennox Lewis (I see him being put as high as 3, 4, 5 on many of your lists. I dont buy it. Maybe he could get in at 8 or 9.)

Jack Johnson (maybe he's not as fashionable now as he has been, but he's still a bit overrated. He clutched and smothered his way through bore fests with men who he dwarfed in terms of size and strength and power. That's not a good effort.)

Underrated :

Joe Frazier (gets a bad rap on lists and in head-to-head match-ups. I think he's a lock for the top 10, and is arguably top 5 or 6)

Evander Holyfield (I put him above Tyson, and above Lewis. Many here put him beneath both. He's arguably top 5.)

Riddick Bowe (Maybe not deserving of a high rating particularly, but this fighter gets a lot of disrespect and underestimated by some very dubious reasoning. For example, the Golota fights are seen as damning evidence against him when really they proved exactly how much heart he had left when everything else had deserted him.)

Max Schmeling (for reasons unknown to me he often gets shafted out of even a place in the top 20 of all-time. I think he was better than the likes of Walcott, for starters. He knocked out a prime Joe Louis, among other things.)

I basically agree with all of this.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:10 PM   #41
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

Overrated: Not sure, they come and go in popularity it seems

Underrated: Tunney, Fitzsimmons (nationalistic bias from me perhaps and he gets his props but just brutal for such a small man)

Im going to have to look up more on Tunney, seriously the guy beats Dempsey twice and just because he wasnt a colourful personality or a big puncher he gets almost completely overlooked by the wider public, Ill have a look here for some good Tunney threads...
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:15 PM   #42
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

Over-rater, under-rated.... there is no consensus on how fighters are rated. If this board proves anything, it is this. Pointless topic for soapboxers.

William "The Prussian" Sheriff is criminally under-rated. He could have licked Sullivan, Jackson and Corbett in the same afternoon. Physical specimen.
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Old 02-20-2010, 12:01 AM   #43
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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Originally Posted by flamengo View Post
Fair return mate.

For mine, John L. His qualities as Champion are on par with Adolf Hitlers qualities as a comedian.

People offering excuses for John L. are no better than those who offer excuses for Adolf.
Well said. If John L. was so great, then can someone tell me why he didn't fight Peter Jackson? The truth is, John L. Sullivan's style was better suited for bare-knuckle boxing, even though he didn't fight a lot of bare-knuckle matches. Any good, scientific heavyweight would have beaten him, under the Marquess of Queensberry rules. James J. Corbett fought Jackson to a 61 round no-decision. I can at least respect a man who is willing to fight people of all races, unlike a man who says "I won't fight a negro. I never have and never shall."
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Old 02-20-2010, 12:58 AM   #44
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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Well said. If John L. was so great, then can someone tell me why he didn't fight Peter Jackson? The truth is, John L. Sullivan's style was better suited for bare-knuckle boxing, even though he didn't fight a lot of bare-knuckle matches. Any good, scientific heavyweight would have beaten him, under the Marquess of Queensberry rules. James J. Corbett fought Jackson to a 61 round no-decision. I can at least respect a man who is willing to fight people of all races, unlike a man who says "I won't fight a negro. I never have and never shall."
Another ersatz victory for a guy whose legacy is made by who he didn't fight. Jackson does not get a win over Sullivan because Sullivan was too pigheaded to fight him. And your estimation of Sullivan is woefully lacking. He was lightning quick, powerful and threw in combinations. In fact, given the reams of materials I have read on both fighters, I have a very hard time picking Jackson over Sullivan, at least in Sullivan's prime.
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Old 02-20-2010, 01:20 AM   #45
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Default Re: Heavyweight Champions - The Overrated and The Underrated

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Another ersatz victory for a guy whose legacy is made by who he didn't fight. Jackson does not get a win over Sullivan because Sullivan was too pigheaded to fight him. And your estimation of Sullivan is woefully lacking. He was lightning quick, powerful and threw in combinations. In fact, given the reams of materials I have read on both fighters, I have a very hard time picking Jackson over Sullivan, at least in Sullivan's prime.

And you reams of Pro-John L. dribble are written by journalists who never laced on a pair of gloves. Most of your accounts at hand are no doubt written by the same men who viewed John L on the same Vaudaville tours in which he'd challenge any bum from the crowd to last 4 rounds..

Lightening quick... from escaping genuine challenges perhaps.
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