Prime Marciano vs. 36 year old Holyfield

[janitor]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Louis wasn't as strong as Holyfield though. Holyfield is thicker, denser, stronger. Louis was never a man to bull wrestle his opponent around where as Holyfield loved to tussle in that way

Louis was strong enough to handel Primo Carnera in the clinches.

I would not necisarily asume that Holyfield will manhandle Marciano.

[NickHudson]

Calling me a condescending twat does not change the fact that Holyfield had an even more massive physical 'advantage' over Czyz than he would over the Rock. I am merely observing that it didn't seem to count for very much on the night.

You believe that Holyfield kept stepping into the ring and putting his career on the line by fighting with debilitating illnesses. I am skeptical of this.

If he had enough money and cunningness to pay a lawyer to defend him from the BALCO drugs scandal, then I believe he had enough money and cunningness to get a decent doctor to monitor his health and perform the appropriate liver function tests before stepping in the ring.

The question remains, how much was his poor performance against Czyz a product of illness, and how much due to fighting a smaller, quicker, more elusive target than he was used to?

PS I am not trying to piss you (or anyone else) off, but I think you consistently overstate the importance of increased size, and overlook how scaling laws detract from athletic performance once you get very big.

When I mentioned this the other day you described it as bollocks. This maybe your opinion, but it is wrong. Scaling laws are a fact of life, every bit as uncontraversial as gravity and Newtons laws of motion.

I brought this up in the other thread where you were talking about height being an advantage for sprinters. I can tell you right now that there are no 6 2 or 6 3, let alone 6 5 guys who have run remotely close to Michael Johnson's 200m record of 19.32. Johnson himself was a shade under 6 foot.

Peace.

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

The point is Holyfield had a MASSIVE physical advantage and was the better boxer than Marciano.

He put Cryz away in 5 in an off night when Holyfield was recovering from hepititis - what has that got to do with anything? Anyway Cryz hadnt fought at LHW for 7years and weighed 210. We can pick out plenty of nights when Marciano looked poor too.

Who said anything about bodybuilders you condescending twat, obviously an unskilled muscle bound bodybuilder gets taken apart easily. But a bigger stronger more skilled boxer beats a smaller weaker less skilled boxer

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by dave krieg

How about a prime Marciano vs a black little person with no arms.Even that is too much of a challenge for Marciano.

Marciano was not Biased he KO'd Blacks as well as Whites, 43 of them (Black & White People) in 49 fights

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by NickHudson

Calling me a condescending twat does not change the fact that Holyfield had an even more massive physical 'advantage' over Czyz than he would over the Rock. I am merely observing that it didn't seem to count for very much on the night.

You believe that Holyfield kept stepping into the ring and putting his career on the line by fighting with debilitating illnesses. I am skeptical of this.

If he had enough money and cunningness to pay a lawyer to defend him from the BALCO drugs scandal, then I believe he had enough money and cunningness to get a decent doctor to monitor his health and perform the appropriate liver function tests before stepping in the ring.

The question remains, how much was his poor performance against Czyz a product of illness, and how much due to fighting a smaller, quicker, more elusive target than he was used to?

PS I am not trying to piss you (or anyone else) off, but I think you consistently overstate the importance of increased size, and overlook how scaling laws detract from athletic performance once you get very big.

When I mentioned this the other day you described it as bollocks. This maybe your opinion, but it is wrong. Scaling laws are a fact of life, every bit as uncontraversial as gravity and Newtons laws of motion.

I brought this up in the other thread where you were talking about height being an advantage for sprinters. I can tell you right now that there are no 6 2 or 6 3, let alone 6 5 guys who have run remotely close to Michael Johnson's 200m record of 19.32. Johnson himself was a shade under 6 foot.

Peace.

Points taken - I'm not sure how much Holyfield was still affected by the Hepertitis. But maybe Holyfield also needs a big challenge to up his game?

Isn't Tyson a better analogy than Cryz. Practically the same height, reach, style. Holyfield matched up well against Tyson, why not Marciano? Yes Marciano had a higher workrate but Tyson was faster. Few would argue Marciano is punching harder than Tyson. Tyson is technically better than Marciano with a better defense.

I was actually shocked that Owens was only 5'10 because he looked so much bigger than the competition, I think he Owens with modern training and nutrition would be top3 today but in his 1936 incarnation he wouldn't be because technology has moved on.

[RoccoMarciano]

Originally Posted by janitor

I actualy think that the cruiserweight Holyfield would have a better chance against Marciano than the heavyweight version.

The atributes he will really need here are workrate, speed and stamina not strength.

I agree with you, but Evander would still lose.

[Marciano Frazier]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

I think that you may be overlooking the fact that Louis didn't fair well against fighters who crowded or swarmed, wheras Holyfield tended to eat them right up.

"Eat them right up"? As I recall, a prime Holyfield went to war and was decked and in trouble against Bert Cooper, who was a small, one-dimensional swarmer a couple of light years behind Marciano in ability.

[Bummy Davis]

Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier

"Eat them right up"? As I recall, a prime Holyfield went to war and was decked and in trouble against Bert Cooper, who was a small, one-dimensional swarmer a couple of light years behind Marciano in ability.

Holy was lucky to get out of that one vs Cooper, and then the body shots from 5"9 Toney did him in, Toney was not near Marciano in power and body shots or punchrate

[C. M. Clay II]

Originally Posted by janitor

Louis was strong enough to handel Primo Carnera in the clinches.

Tell that to Luigi. He still thinks I made that up.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Bummy Davis

Holy was lucky to get out of that one vs Cooper, and then the body shots from 5"9 Toney did him in, Toney was not near Marciano in power and body shots or punchrate

I don't suppose it means anything to you that Holyfield was 40 years old when he fought James Toney, yet Marciano was 32 when he was decked by a 38 year old former lightheavyweight.

I agree with you that Toney had no where near Marciano's punching ability, and nor do I hold Rocky's performance against Archie Moore against him, but your comparisons suck.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier

"Eat them right up"? As I recall, a prime Holyfield went to war and was decked and in trouble against Bert Cooper, who was a small, one-dimensional swarmer a couple of light years behind Marciano in ability.

Bert Copper was not a small fighter. He was 215 Lbs ( 5 Lbs heavier than Holyfield and 30 Lbs heavier than Marciano), and in very good shape for that fight. Holyfield took that fight on very short notice after both Tyson's rape charge was filed, and Francesco Damiani was injured in training. He struggled with Cooper in the 3rd round but basically kicked his ass the rest of the time.

[Marciano Frazier]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

Bert Copper was not a small fighter. He was 215 Lbs ( 5 Lbs heavier than Holyfield and 30 Lbs heavier than Marciano), and in very good shape for that fight. Holyfield took that fight on very short notice after both Tyson's rape charge was filed, and Francesco Damiani was injured in training. He struggled with Cooper in the 3rd round but basically kicked his ass the rest of the time.

Cooper was 5'11 1/2" and weighed around 190 well into his 20s. If he wasn't a small heavyweight, neither was Marciano.

[mr. magoo]

Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier

Cooper was 5'11 1/2" and weighed around 190 well into his 20s. If he wasn't a small heavyweight, neither was Marciano.

That isn't the way you stated it. You flat out said that Cooper was a small heavyweight, when in fact he was actually heavier than Holyfield who incidentally also began his career beneath the 190 pound mark. And who ever said anything about Marciano being small, even though Cooper did in fact out weigh him by a heafty 30 Lbs in his prime.

[RoccoMarciano]

Originally Posted by C. M. Clay II

Tell that to Luigi. He still thinks I made that up.

You're making that up...

I love Magoo's avatar

[cross_trainer]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Points taken - I'm not sure how much Holyfield was still affected by the Hepertitis. But maybe Holyfield also needs a big challenge to up his game?

Isn't Tyson a better analogy than Cryz. Practically the same height, reach, style. Holyfield matched up well against Tyson, why not Marciano? Yes Marciano had a higher workrate but Tyson was faster. Few would argue Marciano is punching harder than Tyson. Tyson is technically better than Marciano with a better defense.

Overall, Tyson was a superior fighter to the Rock (whom I do not rate in my top 10 head-to-head). Perhaps even the '96 version was better than Marciano. But he did not have the style to do well against Holyfield. He was extremely inactive in the clinches, didn't have much of an inside game, didn't work the body consistently in '96, and didn't have the swarming workrate that he needed to overwhelm Holyfield's defeses--rather, he tried to time a single big punch, which was something that would never beat Holyfield. He was also not dirty enough (at least, not in ways that would allow him to beat Holyfield in a clinch-fest...ear biting is NOT smart fouling ).

[Marciano Frazier]

Originally Posted by mr. magoo

That isn't the way you stated it. You flat out said that Cooper was a small heavyweight, when in fact he was actually heavier than Holyfield who incidentally also began his career beneath the 190 pound mark. And who ever said anything about Marciano being small, even though Cooper did in fact out weigh him by a heafty 30 Lbs in his prime.

Obviously I meant small for a heavyweight. When posters say Bob Fitzsimmons was small, I don't say, "Nuh-uh! His height and weight were above average!" I know what they mean.
Again, Cooper outweighed Marciano at the time he fought Holyfield, but he was naturally the same size as Rocky.