Boxing  

Forum Home Boxing Forum European British Classic Aussie MMA Training
Go Back   Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum


View Poll Results: Is Roberto Duran overrated?
Yes 34 29.57%
No 81 70.43%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-04-2010, 10:41 AM   #46
Sweet Pea
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: I never sleep, cuz sleep is the cousin of death
Posts: 13,604
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Ray Robinson is overrated as well, I guess. He did have 19 losses, after all. That's 3 more than Duran. Therefore Duran>Robinson.
Sweet Pea is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 10:45 AM   #47
essexboy
The Cat
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,035
vCash: 418
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
I have him 14-18 All time P4P on my pro-footage P4P list. Is that so underrated?

My problem is that in my mind Leonard, Hearns and Hagler are most certainly above him. And that Montreal Duran isn't KOing Prime Ali, Tyson, Lewis, Marciano, Holyfield, Jones Jr.
Thats sounds fair but whats your reasoning for having Hagler above Duran? I cant see it. Hagler's reign at middleweight is comparable to Duran's reign at lightweight. If Hagler had gone on to win titles in other weight divisions like Duran did, I would understand but he didnt. Im interested to hear how you come to that conclusion.
essexboy is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 10:46 AM   #48
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 238
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
Holyfield/Toney ??
You are right, Duran preceded them, so the syndrome should be named after him.
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 10:47 AM   #49
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,581
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
You are right, Duran preceded them, so the syndrome should be named after him.
I didn't know there was a syndrome.
What does it consist of again ?
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 11:03 AM   #50
Stevie G
Champion
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London,England
Posts: 9,280
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

In my view Duran is quite justifiably rated very high on all-time great lists.
Stevie G is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 12:04 PM   #51
ChrisPontius
March 8th, 1971
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Holland
Posts: 9,643
vCash: 238
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unforgiven View Post
I didn't know there was a syndrome.
What does it consist of again ?
Being undefeated because every single loss is neutralized by an excuse.

Some examples:

De Jesus: Duran was green
Leonard: Duran had no time to prepare, this is Leonard's fault because he wanted a rematch. Oh, and he had stomach cramps
Hagler: Duran was old, judges saw it wrong
Laing: Duran was unmotivated, couldn't be bothered to win
Benetiz: Duran didn't care nor trained for this fight
Hearns: Last two combined

etc etc
ChrisPontius is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 12:05 PM   #52
bodhi
So I can die easy ...
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,491
vCash: 1337
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
Being undefeated because every single loss is neutralized by an excuse.

Some examples:

De Jesus: Duran was green
Leonard: Duran had no time to prepare, this is Leonard's fault because he wanted a rematch. Oh, and he had stomach cramps
Hagler: Duran was old, judges saw it wrong
Laing: Duran was unmotivated, couldn't be bothered to win
Benetiz: Duran didn't care nor trained for this fight
Hearns: Last two combined

etc etc
That's actually the only one that I think holds some weight.
bodhi is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 12:21 PM   #53
Sweet Pea
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: I never sleep, cuz sleep is the cousin of death
Posts: 13,604
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Duran was still a bit green for the DeJesus fight. I don't see how that's arguable. Be that as it may, I don't think that was the primary reason. The fact that he was in with an excellent fighter putting in one of his best performances in a 10 round non-title bout that didn't see Duran at his fiery best, is the main reason. I wouldn't say that was the case if I didn't see it in the footage.

That's why I don't make the same excuse for the Benitez fight. Duran simply wasn't the same fighter at that weight and at that stage as he was earlier in his career, especially against a stylist like Benitez. Do I think the fight would've been different a few years earlier at Welter? Yes, but at 154, at that stage of his career and beyond, Duran is likely always losing that fight. He actually seemed in better shape physically for that one than most of his other fights around that time.

Somewhat similar with Hearns. Duran didn't have much of a strategy for that one it didn't appear, not to mention Hearns at the weight was stylistic kryptonite for the bloated, out of shape Duran. Again, if you refuse to acknowledge this from the footage I'd hardly say I'm the one with an irrational bias. Hearns may've always beaten Duran, regardless. Not entirely sure, but I don't think it's too damning for him in the long run, being a bloated Lightweight losing to one of the most dynamic 147-154 pounders of all time who holds every conceivable advantage. Especially seeing as how he was still able to bounce back from it in his advanced age.

The fire that fueled Duran throughout his first 13 years was only seen in spurts once he'd reach the apex of his career after the first Leonard fight. That's the primary reason we saw such a drop-off, that and the fact that he had indeed been fighting wars for 13 years, and was fighting multiple classes above his best weight. I don't see why that's so difficult to comprehend. His achievements past that point only add to his legacy, and really put into context his technical abilities when he was on occasion able to muster up that same fire that he once had. I'm not saying he'd have fared any better against the likes of Hagler or Benitez regardless, but Laing and Simms? Surely, even at that stage of his career. Should those losses be held against him? Yeah, to some degree, but I don't think they hold any merit as far as showing what limits Duran had as a fighter at his best.

Duran was a passion fighter, as I've said many times. His performance relied on his passion. Past a certain point in a fighter's career it's difficult to muster up that same burning fuel time and again, especially when said fighter has deteriorated physically to the point Duran had in his later years. All in all, he had one of the most successful and impressive careers of all time, and at his best was second to few (arguably none).
Sweet Pea is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 12:28 PM   #54
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,581
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisPontius View Post
Being undefeated because every single loss is neutralized by an excuse.

Some examples:

De Jesus: Duran was green
Leonard: Duran had no time to prepare, this is Leonard's fault because he wanted a rematch. Oh, and he had stomach cramps
Hagler: Duran was old, judges saw it wrong
Laing: Duran was unmotivated, couldn't be bothered to win
Benetiz: Duran didn't care nor trained for this fight
Hearns: Last two combined

etc etc
Yeah, I get ya. I didn't know Holyfield and Toney got special treatment though. Of course, Holyfield is given leeway because the vast majority of his losses were past-prime. Same is true of Ali.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 12:30 PM   #55
Unforgiven
Undisputed Champion
East Side VIP
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 12,581
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

I've never dimissed the stomach cramps excuse as a lie. It could well be true. Fighters are human beings after all.
Unforgiven is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 12:31 PM   #56
lora
Fighting Zapata
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,555
vCash: 500
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Some of you guys won't be happy until it's been resolved that Duran had a 25 year prime that spanned every weightclass from lightweight to light heavy.

If you ask me it's the constant tedious Leonard and Duran discussion and joke threads over the same tired old topics that's overrated on this forum.almost impossible to get a decent discussion going now on either fighter without the biased agenda driven element coming in and blindly taking sides.Bunch of unskilled labourers.
lora is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 01:33 PM   #57
enquirer
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,604
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Like that post a lot sweet pea. Excellent points.
enquirer is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 01:38 PM   #58
itrymariti
Caņas!
East Side Guru
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: London
Posts: 6,865
vCash: 1000
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Sweet Pea summed it up. Basically, the long and the short of the issue is tape. Duran just did not look as good in some of his fights as he did in others, whether it was motivation, weight, pre-prime-ness, past-prime-ness - whatever. No-one's trying to wipe away his losses, but facts are facts.
itrymariti is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 03:03 PM   #59
Meast
newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Yorkshire/GTMSBT/London
Posts: 0
vCash: 900
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea View Post
Duran was still a bit green for the DeJesus fight. I don't see how that's arguable. Be that as it may, I don't think that was the primary reason. The fact that he was in with an excellent fighter putting in one of his best performances in a 10 round non-title bout that didn't see Duran at his fiery best, is the main reason. I wouldn't say that was the case if I didn't see it in the footage.

That's why I don't make the same excuse for the Benitez fight. Duran simply wasn't the same fighter at that weight and at that stage as he was earlier in his career, especially against a stylist like Benitez. Do I think the fight would've been different a few years earlier at Welter? Yes, but at 154, at that stage of his career and beyond, Duran is likely always losing that fight. He actually seemed in better shape physically for that one than most of his other fights around that time.

Somewhat similar with Hearns. Duran didn't have much of a strategy for that one it didn't appear, not to mention Hearns at the weight was stylistic kryptonite for the bloated, out of shape Duran. Again, if you refuse to acknowledge this from the footage I'd hardly say I'm the one with an irrational bias. Hearns may've always beaten Duran, regardless. Not entirely sure, but I don't think it's too damning for him in the long run, being a bloated Lightweight losing to one of the most dynamic 147-154 pounders of all time who holds every conceivable advantage. Especially seeing as how he was still able to bounce back from it in his advanced age.

The fire that fueled Duran throughout his first 13 years was only seen in spurts once he'd reach the apex of his career after the first Leonard fight. That's the primary reason we saw such a drop-off, that and the fact that he had indeed been fighting wars for 13 years, and was fighting multiple classes above his best weight. I don't see why that's so difficult to comprehend. His achievements past that point only add to his legacy, and really put into context his technical abilities when he was on occasion able to muster up that same fire that he once had. I'm not saying he'd have fared any better against the likes of Hagler or Benitez regardless, but Laing and Simms? Surely, even at that stage of his career. Should those losses be held against him? Yeah, to some degree, but I don't think they hold any merit as far as showing what limits Duran had as a fighter at his best.

Duran was a passion fighter, as I've said many times. His performance relied on his passion. Past a certain point in a fighter's career it's difficult to muster up that same burning fuel time and again, especially when said fighter has deteriorated physically to the point Duran had in his later years. All in all, he had one of the most successful and impressive careers of all time, and at his best was second to few (arguably none).
Excellent post, you summed it up
Meast is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2010, 03:23 PM   #60
Pachilles
Belt holder
ESB Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 3,157
vCash: 75
Default Re: Is Roberto Duran overrated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by itrymariti View Post
Sweet Pea summed it up. Basically, the long and the short of the issue is tape. Duran just did not look as good in some of his fights as he did in others, whether it was motivation, weight, pre-prime-ness, past-prime-ness - whatever. No-one's trying to wipe away his losses, but facts are facts.
Or whether it was his ****ing opponent getting the better of him maybe? No because its Duran we're talking about, it was motivation, weight, pre-prime-ness, past-prime-ness, stomach cramp. Do you see my point??? How can you not see my ****ing point???
Pachilles is offline  Top
Reply With Quote
Reply

Boxing News 24 Forum > Boxing > Classic Boxing Forum

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump





All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:33 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Boxing News 24 Forum 2013