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Old 03-10-2010, 02:47 PM   #1
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Default Worst Greatest ever.

Nearly every thread about the greatest fight ever comes down to two fighters - Joe Louis or Muhammed Ali.

The reality is, that is garbage. While Ali is my number one, there are plenty of other fighters who could conceivably be the greatest fighter ever and who have a legitimate argument, even if most people dont agree with it. For example, Marciano never lost a fight (the ultimate goal of the game) therefore he is the greatest.

My challenge to some of the knowledgeable posters is to construct a legitimate (no matter how weak it is) argument for the worst fighter you possibly can, that they were the greatest fighter ever. I have come up with one, that i think will blow everyone out of the water, which i will post in due course, but in the interim, it might be interesting to see some of the cases that others can put forward for some of the fighters other than Muhammed Ali and Joe Louis.
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:57 PM   #2
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

Joe Mesi never lost. And he was Italian. Take that.
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Old 03-10-2010, 02:58 PM   #3
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

this is really hard. I guess in some sort of legitimate way you could declare Roy Jones Jr the greatest ever
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:06 PM   #4
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

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Originally Posted by Pachilles View Post
this is really hard. I guess in some sort of legitimate way you could declare Roy Jones Jr the greatest ever
Roberto Duran would KO Roy Jones in one.
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:11 PM   #5
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

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Roberto Duran would KO Roy Jones in one.
So could i, but this is not the aim of the thread
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Old 03-10-2010, 05:12 PM   #6
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

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Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
Joe Mesi never lost. And he was Italian. Take that.
He never lost, but he also never became world champion. And Certainly never showed anything to suggest that he was in the same league as Ali, Dempsey, Louis etc. Maybe he could have been, but he simply wasnt. I dont think that there is a realistic argument that he was the greatest ever no matter how hard you stretch it.
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Old 03-10-2010, 05:26 PM   #7
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

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this is really hard. I guess in some sort of legitimate way you could declare Roy Jones Jr the greatest ever
Roy Jones is actually a good an interesting answer. He was probably the fastest heavyweight ever, so he may have an argument, there. At the time when he beat Ruiz, he had never been extended. The problem he has is that his chin has since failed the test of time. One win over John Ruiz (and that is literally his only heavyweight fight) at a time when Ruiz was only one of many different heavyweight champions and certainly not seen as the best one, cannot give any sort of claim as a legitimate Greatest ever. If Roy had have followed Ruiz with a win over Lennox, well that might substantially change things but he didnt. Realistically though, i dont think that there is any way of justifying him as better fighter than Lennox Lewis even. He didnt beat Lennox and he didnt beat anyone that did beat Lennox or anyone that previous Lennox victims havent beaten.

I am after the greatest ever, so probably it might be better to start with more commonly held views, Say Dempsey, Sullivan, Holmes, Walcott etc.
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Old 03-10-2010, 05:39 PM   #8
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

Vitali.

* Never knocked down.

* Never losing on any scorecards at a fight's conclusion.

* Only two opponents ever survived the distance. (Highest KO% of any HW champ)

* Only ever defeated by debilitating mid-fight injury.

* Comes back at age 36, when many ATGs are shot, and immediately resumes domination of best available competition.

* Head-to-head with other ATG heavyweights, his combination of size, strength, reflexes, handspeed, calmness, accuracy and awkward style present physical challenges that no other HW ATG has seen, let alone defeated, in his career.

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Old 03-10-2010, 05:52 PM   #9
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

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Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
Vitali.

* Never knocked down.

* Never losing on any scorecards at a fight's conclusion.

* Only two opponents ever survived the distance. (Highest KO% of any HW champ)

* Only ever defeated by debilitating mid-fight injury.

* Comes back at age 36, when many ATGs are shot, and immediately resumes domination of best available competition.

* Head-to-head with other ATG heavyweights, his combination of size, strength, reflexes, handspeed, calmness, accuracy and awkward style present physical challenges that no other HW ATG has seen, let alone defeated, in his career.

This is definitely a good argument, I think it holds some legitimacy and Vitali would certainly qualify as a candidate. Add in also the fact that he is a modern fighter, and whether people like to admit it or not (i generally argue against it), the fact that Running times, Swimming times and most other measurable sports are all getting faster suggests that Athletically Vitali should theoretically be better than most if not all before him as well. Add in also, that it is only now that the sport is being opened up to the soviet countries.

I think that there is definitely an argument for Vitali so he qualifies as the first candidate.

I think that Vitali is probably the second best answer,although I would still like to hear arguments of others, and it shouldnt be forgotten that many people do actually rate him quite high, and certainly you would expect his rating to go up in time, unless of course he does something to harm his legacy. I am confident that the answer i suggest will still beat Vitali.
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:02 PM   #10
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

Okay. I'll play. Evander Holyfield!!! In a career that seems destined to cover 4 decades, he was an undisputed cruiserweight and heavyweight champion, while taking on anyone who would fight him! He has wins over 7 linear heavyweight champions Bowe, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Moorer, Rahman, and Tyson. And he has a draw with an 8th linear champion, Lewis, in a fight one judge thought he won, leading many to believe that a younger Holyfield would have defeated Lewis as well. What more could you ask for from the Heavyweight GOAT?
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:12 PM   #11
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggis McJackass View Post
Vitali.

* Never knocked down.

* Never losing on any scorecards at a fight's conclusion.

* Only two opponents ever survived the distance. (Highest KO% of any HW champ)

* Only ever defeated by debilitating mid-fight injury.

* Comes back at age 36, when many ATGs are shot, and immediately resumes domination of best available competition.

* Head-to-head with other ATG heavyweights, his combination of size, strength, reflexes, handspeed, calmness, accuracy and awkward style present physical challenges that no other HW ATG has seen, let alone defeated, in his career.

Thanks for posting this. I feel the same way. I don't think he is the absolute greatest, but I believe head to head, Vitali beats A LOT of the past greats. I know that isn't "popular", but face it. The sh*t's for real.
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:12 PM   #12
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boilermaker View Post
He never lost, but he also never became world champion. And Certainly never showed anything to suggest that he was in the same league as Ali, Dempsey, Louis etc. Maybe he could have been, but he simply wasnt. I dont think that there is a realistic argument that he was the greatest ever no matter how hard you stretch it.
...Yeah, I just thought it was funny. I could go back and add a "" if you want.
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:24 PM   #13
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

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Originally Posted by Boxed Ears View Post
...Yeah, I just thought it was funny. I could go back and add a "" if you want.
Not at all, I knew that, and as i said Roy Jones nearly qualified.

If he retired after Ruiz, his case would have been a lot better. Especially if Ruiz hadnt lost to several fighters such as Toney, later in his career and if Ruiz was to some time in the future meet and beat the Klits. Obviously that isnt the case though.

This thread is about raising some alternative arguments to the usual and viewpoints that arent often seen. Even though he didnt qualify, i think the Roy Jones case was interesting to consider. or not. When i put up the case that i think will be the killer to all others, I really will not think that that fighter is the greatest of all time so i guess this whole thread will have a bit of to it.
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:37 PM   #14
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

In what is meant as a compliment, I nominate Larry Holmes as the worst possible fighter I can name greatest heavyweight ever.

48-0; 20 title defenses (the second highest number ever in the division); a record 8 straight knockout victories in title fights.

At his best, he looks sheerly impressive. Tall, well-stanced, with a manly aura of being all business, he had excellent movement in the ring, from the first bell deploying a punishing offense led by an extraordinarily sharp, strong, fast, versatile, busy jab. He could defeat mounds and heaps of mediocre opponents practically with this weapon alone. But it wasn't, by any chance, his only one.

His right hand was a fearsome battering ram, in the form of a cross, hook and uppercut, thrown in succession or combination. Holmes was a very good finisher. Once his opponent was hurt, the measured boxer would suddenly turn mean-streak assassin and mercilessly pummel his victim to defeat.

His defense was excellent. Though particularly susceptible to knockdowns from right hands, Holmes instintively raised two long, tough arms whenever in punching range, which served as a formidable shield for body and head. Blocking, parrying, clinching, movement -laterally to both sides or on the toes-, were all mastered defense-tool-kit components which served him so well he once scored a virtual shutout over 12 of fabled powerpuncher Earnie Shavers, without as much as a scratch.

His endurance was a plus. He could jab a man silly for seven straight rounds, thus placing victory safely in the bag from the start, yet roar back if necessary in the 15th and final round with an incessant stream of withering lefts and rights, down to the final bell.

And that heart! If you wanted to beat Larry Holmes, you practically had to be willing to die in the ring. Powerful men such as Mike Weaver, Earnie Shavers, Gerry Cooney, Ken Norton, Renaldo Snipes, Bonecrusher Smith, Trevor Berbick and Tim Witherspoon were determined to wrest victory from Holmes but had the tables turned on them and finally all met bitter defeat at the hands of a proud, regal, ring warrior.

At 6'3", 212 pounds, the Easton Assassin had the dimensions to successfully compete with any man of any era. To watch this savvy smooth operator in his glorious prime is to see the heavyweight championship of the world in good hands.
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:38 PM   #15
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Default Re: Worst Greatest ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djanders View Post
Okay. I'll play. Evander Holyfield!!! In a career that seems destined to cover 4 decades, he was an undisputed cruiserweight and heavyweight champion, while taking on anyone who would fight him! He has wins over 7 linear heavyweight champions Bowe, Douglas, Foreman, Holmes, Moorer, Rahman, and Tyson. And he has a draw with an 8th linear champion, Lewis, in a fight one judge thought he won, leading many to believe that a younger Holyfield would have defeated Lewis as well. What more could you ask for from the Heavyweight GOAT?
Another good answer. Evander is definitely a qualifier and you identify some good points. Let us not forget that Tyson was considered unbeatable and unbackable favourite, and even the greatest of all time by many when Evander beat him, when past his prime too! And he did it by KO too. And backed it up with a beating so bad, that Tyson had to foul out blatently the same way that the old school fighters did years and years ago.

Douglas had just beaten a fighter that many had thought the greatest fighter of all time when Holyfield comprehensively KOd him. In fact he was coming off arguably the biggest win in history ever and in the form of his life.

Holyfield also showed more heart than anyone, ever. Am i not correct in saying that he has regained the world championship as many times as any other heavyweight ever has? And most people say he should have regained it again from Nicolai Valuev, but for crooked Judges, at a ridiculous age.

Being a recent fighter who even now is actually beating the best the world has to offer (when he is so far past his best) also scores points under the evolution theory.

His only blight is the lost to Bowe - Physically the greatest World champion ever, and one who himself has an argument to top 10 greatest level. Holyfield did lose this series but he undertook it with a serious heart condition. It is an absolute tribute to the man that he actually one the fight and made the others so close.

All things considered, i say that holyfield is a definite qualifier.

We have 2 good answers so far. Holyfield and Vitali. Any other takers?
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