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Old 03-13-2010, 06:49 AM   #16
GPater11093
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Couter-puncher is ok, but he certainly wasn't a counter-puncher against Dempsey...as Janitor has pointed out and as his In The Ring so firmly surmised, he doesn't have an easy style to peg. I like trap-smith, i've just sort of made a style up to him - but all your head to head wonders have a bit of that, a dose of that "wtf" about them.
His style is weird as hell and he did vary it.

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There is something to this, possibly, but that's the thing with the trap-smith (copywrite McGrain) style, you want someone to fight aggressively. There is more than one contest involving Fitz where he was being swarmed and the other guy just dropped like he had been shot.
I agree with trap-smith. Although I always think of Fitzsimmons as a tank.

Fairly static but looks to pick targets carefully with big punches, when being attacked keeps his cool and looks to slot one home, but can be overrun, if he does not get his shots off.

I also think he could change and be abit more aggresive and force his opponents to make mistakes then counter them, like what he did with Dempsey.


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Well he's a horrible style for anyone. I think it would be a very boring fight with Fitz maybe shading a decision on the aggression?
I could see Griffith out-working him though.
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Old 03-13-2010, 06:51 AM   #17
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

Fitz may have competed in a substandard era with a lesser standard, without better footage of the era its impossible to tell, but it is likely. Tiger had his limitatations in his own era but looks to be technically more sound, much busier and looked to be in better physical condition.

Without good footage of Fitz any thoughts are pure guess work
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Old 03-13-2010, 06:53 AM   #18
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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I think higher of Ryan than of Dempsey. I think he has a shout of being a Top3 p4p fighter before the 20s - alongside Fitz and Langford. Dempsey was very good when he fought Fitz, people thought he would beat everyone that night but Fitz. But he also was past it. I think Ryan was better prime for prime and we speaking of a prime Ryan instead of a slightly past-it Dempsey. Would be a great fight.
Prime Ryan and that Dempsey are not one and the same, and they are rather different in my estimation anyway, but, in terms of how they would fight Fitz, you have to believe that Dempsey is a really good foil. And he got absolutley destroyed, i mean he wasn't in it. A one-sided thrashing. That doesn't translate all the way across, but I wonder, given how firmly Fitz out-boxed and out-generaled him with the added power gap...it doesn't add up particularly well for Ryan in my estimation.

Furthermore, I was reading this morning about West-Ryan 3 (you posted in that thread in fact). What success West had seemed to be in forcing an eager Ryan to lead and taking what he had to give and countering - sounds familiar? It should, because it surmises the way Fitz fought aggressive fighters rather nicely. What spelt several rounds of domiantion for West might spell a sharp end for Ryan versus Fitz. But Ryan was superb and you never know. Just that my money would be on Fitz.

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Walker is no face-first brawler though
I certainly didn't mean to apply that he was that, just that he traded on pressure and violence. The style advantage is firmly with Fitz here, as well as the physical advantages.
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Old 03-13-2010, 06:54 AM   #19
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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Originally Posted by GPater11093 View Post
I agree with trap-smith. Although I always think of Fitzsimmons as a tank.

Fairly static but looks to pick targets carefully with big punches, when being attacked keeps his cool and looks to slot one home, but can be overrun, if he does not get his shots off.
I like that too, based upon the HW run.




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I could see Griffith out-working him though.
If he didn't get KO'd he'd have a chance at a decision, I think. When we have one fighter generally dominating aggression (Assuming Griffith doesn't want to work that much on the inside or mix it up) AND there's only one fighter winning by KO though, I know where my money is going.
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Old 03-13-2010, 06:54 AM   #20
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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Tiger can't KO Fitz.
Any man can be ko'd, Tiger may well have been the best composite puncher and may have hit Fitz more than he'd ever been hit
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Old 03-13-2010, 06:57 AM   #21
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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I like that too, based upon the HW run.
It is very difficult to guage his pre HW style IMO, I think he refined his skills at HW really and before was slightly raw.


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If he didn't get KO'd he'd have a chance at a decision, I think. When we have one fighter generally dominating aggression (Assuming Griffith doesn't want to work that much on the inside or mix it up) AND there's only one fighter winning by KO though, I know where my money is going.
I think on the inside both men would'nt look to fight and keep it away from the inside, Griffith because he doesnt want to get in their, and Fitz because he does more damage at range.
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Old 03-13-2010, 06:58 AM   #22
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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Any man can be ko'd, Tiger may well have been the best composite puncher and may have hit Fitz more than he'd ever been hit

Fitz hit as hard as Foster in my estimation. Foster nearly killed Tiger. But then, this is a smaller version of Fitz who hadn't established himself as anything like the puncher he would become, so yeah, i'll accept your maybe. At the very least we agree that Tiger had an absolutley extraordinary chin.
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Old 03-13-2010, 06:59 AM   #23
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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Old 03-13-2010, 07:01 AM   #24
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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Originally Posted by GPater11093 View Post
It is very difficult to guage his pre HW style IMO, I think he refined his skills at HW really and before was slightly raw.
I disagree with this. My impression of Fitz is that if anything he re-gressed as a technical fighter but sharpened a specific set of tools that worked for him up at the higher weights to become an overall more refined specialised machine.




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I think on the inside both men would'nt look to fight and keep it away from the inside, Griffith because he doesnt want to get in their, and Fitz because he does more damage at range.
Yeah, it's a really weird one this because Griffith might be the better in-fighter...really rare in this type of cross-era match up. Either way, I wouldn't bet on it. Anyway, here, he doesn't want to be inside, for sure.
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Old 03-13-2010, 07:39 AM   #25
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
Prime Ryan and that Dempsey are not one and the same, and they are rather different in my estimation anyway, but, in terms of how they would fight Fitz, you have to believe that Dempsey is a really good foil. And he got absolutley destroyed, i mean he wasn't in it. A one-sided thrashing. That doesn't translate all the way across, but I wonder, given how firmly Fitz out-boxed and out-generaled him with the added power gap...it doesn't add up particularly well for Ryan in my estimation.

Furthermore, I was reading this morning about West-Ryan 3 (you posted in that thread in fact). What success West had seemed to be in forcing an eager Ryan to lead and taking what he had to give and countering - sounds familiar? It should, because it surmises the way Fitz fought aggressive fighters rather nicely. What spelt several rounds of domiantion for West might spell a sharp end for Ryan versus Fitz. But Ryan was superb and you never know. Just that my money would be on Fitz.
You make some good points. I want to add that Ryan also beat Dempsey in three.

Fitz and Ryan fought an exhibition in the early 1890s. Do you have any newspaper reports or other reports on this. Could give us an indication how a real fight would unfold.

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I certainly didn't mean to apply that he was that, just that he traded on pressure and violence. The style advantage is firmly with Fitz here, as well as the physical advantages.
Hm, Fitz was also beaten by pressure fighters and I think Walker wouldn't give him much room to work.
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Old 03-13-2010, 07:45 AM   #26
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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You make some good points. I want to add that Ryan also beat Dempsey in three.
Demspey was actually pissed. Literally.

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Fitz and Ryan fought an exhibition in the early 1890s. Do you have any newspaper reports or other reports on this. Could give us an indication how a real fight would unfold.
No, I don't know it, but one thing that is interesting to me is that Ryan was instrumental in preparing Jeffries for Fitz, perhaps he had his number in some way? Although of course, Jeffries has an extra 70lbs to execute the strategy.
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:46 AM   #27
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

Very interesting, i think Fitz has the ability to stop his man, but Tiger has the ability to win the fight ie the exchanges. It's not as if Fitz' right hand is not potent here because Foster did it with the left, Tiger's not that kind of fighter who is only susceptible to one shot in the main. Fitzimmons might stop him late whilst trailing on the cards. I think the ability that Tiger has to counter with the heavy artillery sees him do well here though.
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:49 AM   #28
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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Originally Posted by McGrain View Post
I disagree with this. My impression of Fitz is that if anything he re-gressed as a technical fighter but sharpened a specific set of tools that worked for him up at the higher weights to become an overall more refined specialised machine.
Really, I thought he was a much more physical fighter pre-HW days and relied more on his strength and physicality rather than his speed and technical ability.

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Yeah, it's a really weird one this because Griffith might be the better in-fighter...really rare in this type of cross-era match up. Either way, I wouldn't bet on it. Anyway, here, he doesn't want to be inside, for sure.
It is weird because the better inside fighter (Griffith) actually wants to be in his opponents danger zone (Fitzs- on the outside). To win.
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Old 03-13-2010, 08:57 AM   #29
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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Originally Posted by GPater11093 View Post
Really, I thought he was a much more physical fighter pre-HW days and relied more on his strength and physicality rather than his speed and technical ability.
Oh i don't doubt that this is true, I didn't mean to imply he was more physical at higher weights, the opposite in fact. Fitz wasn't big enough to fight these guys in the ways he learned coming up, becuase he was in consistantly with bigger men. Fighting at MW saw him enjoy certain advantages that became exclusively disadvantages when he moved up for the HW's. Fitz had to narrow his range. I'm sure that he became technically better than he was previously at the things he did, but in the same way Tyson was better technically than Liston - within a very narrow remit that he had to use to win fights due to physical limitations. Liston is a better technician because of his bigger breadth.

Similar conundrum with Fitz. He's just one big enigma, really.



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It is weird because the better inside fighter (Griffith) actually wants to be in his opponents danger zone (Fitzs- on the outside). To win.

The whole match up is baffling, actually.
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Old 03-13-2010, 09:11 AM   #30
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Default Re: Bob Fitzsimmons vs. Dick Tiger

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Oh i don't doubt that this is true, I didn't mean to imply he was more physical at higher weights, the opposite in fact. Fitz wasn't big enough to fight these guys in the ways he learned coming up, becuase he was in consistantly with bigger men. Fighting at MW saw him enjoy certain advantages that became exclusively disadvantages when he moved up for the HW's. Fitz had to narrow his range. I'm sure that he became technically better than he was previously at the things he did, but in the same way Tyson was better technically than Liston - within a very narrow remit that he had to use to win fights due to physical limitations. Liston is a better technician because of his bigger breadth.

Similar conundrum with Fitz. He's just one big enigma, really.
Thing is in the Corbett fight he played a patient stalker and took his oppertunities when it comes. When he fights Jeffries he goes for him.

How the **** you supposed to understand this guy?

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The whole match up is baffling, actually.
It really is.
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