What if Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) never was?

[TBooze]

I think out of all single acts in the what if? questions; this act would have the most dramatic skewing of boxing history, and would leave the most unanswered questions…

Could someone else have filled a large part of the gap left if Ali had not been there?

How much longer would of Liston reigned?

Who would have defeated Liston?

How long would of Smokin’ Joe reigned?

Without Ali, would Frazier be considered better or worse than he is?

How long would Foreman reign and who would beat him?

Would Holmes without the Ali shadow, been considered even better?

Would the sport of benefited because perhaps the likes of Duran, Monzon and Napoles could have been more mainstream without an Ali shadow?

Would all the youngsters that were brought up on Ali, still have the passion for boxing that turned the early/mid 80s into another golden era for the sport?

Would Leonard of become a superstar?

Would Hagler, Hearns and Duran of been so mainstream?

Would Tyson still of been the mainstream phenomenon he turned out to be?

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by TBooze

I think out of all single acts in the what if? questions; this act would have the most dramatic skewing of boxing history, and would leave the most unanswered questions…

Could someone else have filled a large part of the gap left if Ali had not been there? Unlikely

How much longer would of Liston reigned? till circa '65-66

Who would have defeated Liston? Leotis Martin

How long would of Smokin’ Joe reigned? till '73

Without Ali, would Frazier be considered better or worse than he is? undeniably worse

How long would Foreman reign and who would beat him? circa '77, when the unfancied Holmes ekes a decision

Would Holmes without the Ali shadow, been considered even better? hmmm

Would the sport of benefited because perhaps the likes of Duran, Monzon and Napoles could have been more mainstream without an Ali shadow? definetly not, Ali brought a much vaster fanbase to boxing

Would all the youngsters that were brought up on Ali, still have the passion for boxing that turned the early/mid 80s into another golden era for the sport? Interesting point, I'd possibly say that it may have had a knock on effect

Would Leonard of become a superstar? without doubt

Would Hagler, Hearns and Duran of been so mainstream?
Yes


Would Tyson still of been the mainstream phenomenon he turned out to be?

Possibly even more so

[TBooze]

I cannot see Martin beating Liston in 65/66, but if they fought, maybe it would of saved Banks...

[laxpdx]

I don't think boxing would be nearly as popular as it became, if not cease to exist altogether. Ali revolutionized the whole sport.

[amy]

Originally Posted by TBooze

What if Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) never was?

Then ESPNC would HAVE to play something else.

[janitor]

[quote]

Originally Posted by TBooze

I think out of all single acts in the what if? questions; this act would have the most dramatic skewing of boxing history, and would leave the most unanswered questions…

Could someone else have filled a large part of the gap left if Ali had not been there?

I would give Foreman the best chance. He was the only one of the big three who did not let his training slip after wining the title.

How much longer would of Liston reigned?

Not much longer

Who would have defeated Liston?

Whichever qualified challenger got to him first.

How long would of Smokin’ Joe reigned?

That would depend on whether he let his training slip as he did after the Ali fight. If he did then sombody would have had him sooner rather than later.

How long would Foreman reign and who would beat him?

He would have cleaned house against the big hitters and then lost his title to Jimmy Young.

[OLD FOGEY]

Liston is the most interesting. He would have held the championship a while longer, I think, but the films show an aging and visibly slowing fighter. If he blew the championship in 1965 or 1966 to Terrell or Chuvalo or Bonavena, his reputation might be a lot lower today. With Sonny getting old, training haphazardly, and believing his own clippings, such an upset might not be off the charts.

If Liston might be the big loser, I see Holmes as the big winner. If Young doesn't get to Foreman, Holmes might have, and a win over a prime George would have been Larry's signature victory and cemented a position at least in the top four or so for even his doubters.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY

Liston is the most interesting. He would have held the championship a while longer,

I think that after the second Patterson fight Liston was a 42/1 upset waiting to happen.

Once you start messing with your training I don't care who you are you are going down.

[C. M. Clay II]

Originally Posted by TBooze

Could someone else have filled a large part of the gap left if Ali had not been there?

Foreman probably would have held the title for the longest out of anyone in that period.

Originally Posted by TBooze

How much longer would of Liston reigned?

Until 1969.

Originally Posted by TBooze

Who would have defeated Liston?

Joe Frazier.

Originally Posted by TBooze

How long would of Smokin’ Joe reigned?

Until 1973 when Foreman beats him.

Originally Posted by TBooze

Without Ali, would Frazier be considered better or worse than he is?

He might be considered the same. Having a win over Liston would make up for the rivalry with Ali.

Originally Posted by TBooze

How long would Foreman reign and who would beat him?

He would reign until 1978. Holmes would beat him, but Foreman would win it back in 1980, then Holmes wins it back in 1981. This would be a great rivalry, IMO.

Originally Posted by TBooze

Would Holmes without the Ali shadow, been considered even better?

Definetely.

Originally Posted by TBooze

Would the sport of benefited because perhaps the likes of Duran, Monzon and Napoles could have been more mainstream without an Ali shadow?

No, because there would have been a Foreman shadow.

Originally Posted by TBooze

Would all the youngsters that were brought up on Ali, still have the passion for boxing that turned the early/mid 80s into another golden era for the sport?

Not all of them.

Originally Posted by TBooze

Would Leonard of become a superstar?

Yes, because he still had Sugar Ray Robinson to fall back on.

Originally Posted by TBooze

Would Hagler, Hearns and Duran of been so mainstream?

Maybe not because of Holmes "would be" elevated status from the absence of Ali.

Originally Posted by TBooze

Would Tyson still of been the mainstream phenomenon he turned out to be?

Yes, because he could look up to George Foreman instead of Ali.

[PowerPuncher]

If you truly believe Liston took a dive -wouldnt they have cashed in and had him take a dive against someone else instead of Ali? (I dont believe the dive claims)

[OLD FOGEY]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

If you truly believe Liston took a dive -wouldnt they have cashed in and had him take a dive against someone else instead of Ali? (I dont believe the dive claims)

I don't believe the fix stuff either--but you are right, the odds would probably have been even longer.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

If you truly believe Liston took a dive -wouldnt they have cashed in and had him take a dive against someone else instead of Ali? (I dont believe the dive claims)

Knowing the exact round when the former champion is going to be knocked out in a title fight is about as profitable a fix as you can get.

[PowerPuncher]

Originally Posted by janitor

Knowing the exact round when the former champion is going to be knocked out in a title fight is about as profitable a fix as you can get.

Yes but why does Liston get back up to continue fighting without beeen given a count, expecting the fight to continue, until Jersey Joe is told by a bystander Liston had been down for 10. Jersey Joe WRONGLY STOPPED THE FIGHT

Bare in mind Liston could be down for 2miniutes and shouldn't be counted out unless Ali is in the neutral corner, which he was not.

Whether Liston took a dive or not, the fight was finnished prematurely due to incompetant refereeing

[janitor]

Originally Posted by PowerPuncher

Yes but why does Liston get back up to continue fighting without beeen given a count, expecting the fight to continue, until Jersey Joe is told by a bystander Liston had been down for 10. Jersey Joe WRONGLY STOPPED THE FIGHT

Bare in mind Liston could be down for 2miniutes and shouldn't be counted out unless Ali is in the neutral corner, which he was not.

Whether Liston took a dive or not, the fight was finnished prematurely due to incompetant refereeing

How about this.

Liston hits the canvas. All he has to do is wait to be counted out. Then a problem arises. Clay who obviously has not read the script dose not go to his corner but stands over the fallen Liston yelling at him to get up so the count cannot start.

Liston is probably bricking himself at this moment because he knows that if he dose not stick to the script there will be serious concequences.

Referre Walcot who might know about the arrangments desperately tries to get Clay back to his corner almost shoving him to his corner. It is no good because Clay just runs back to ring centre.

Liston gets up knowing that he is going to have to take another dive quickly if he dose not want to wear a concrete jacket.

Walcott then rescues the situation by arguing that because Liston was down for more than 10 seconds he was knocked out.

Everybody breathes a colective sigh of releif.

[TBooze]

Originally Posted by janitor

How about this.

Liston hits the canvas. All he has to do is wait to be counted out. Then a problem arises. Clay who obviously has not read the script dose not go to his corner but stands over the fallen Liston yelling at him to get up so the count cannot start.

Liston is probably bricking himself at this moment because he knows that if he dose not stick to the script there will be serious concequences.

Referre Walcot who might know about the arrangments desperately tries to get Clay back to his corner almost shoving him to his corner. It is no good because Clay just runs back to ring centre.

Liston gets up knowing that he is going to have to take another dive quickly if he dose not want to wear a concrete jacket.

Walcott then rescues the situation by arguing that because Liston was down for more than 10 seconds he was knocked out.

Everybody breathes a colective sigh of releif.

Well for that to work Fleischer had to be involved as well, he was the one screaming at Jersey Joe to stop it.

Mind you Nat's hatred for Ali (Clay) is second only for his loathing of Liston; so I guess Fleischer would have a cut of the action without the need to even be paid, he was that bitter an old man.