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Old 10-08-2007, 04:40 PM   #16
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Default Re: What if Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) never was?

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Originally Posted by janitor
How about this.

Liston hits the canvas. All he has to do is wait to be counted out. Then a problem arises. Clay who obviously has not read the script dose not go to his corner but stands over the fallen Liston yelling at him to get up so the count cannot start.

Liston is probably bricking himself at this moment because he knows that if he dose not stick to the script there will be serious concequences.

Referre Walcot who might know about the arrangments desperately tries to get Clay back to his corner almost shoving him to his corner. It is no good because Clay just runs back to ring centre.

Liston gets up knowing that he is going to have to take another dive quickly if he dose not want to wear a concrete jacket.

Walcott then rescues the situation by arguing that because Liston was down for more than 10 seconds he was knocked out.

Everybody breathes a colective sigh of releif.
Walcott being in on it? Thats a bit of a stretch and an unnessary risk and an extra cost for the MOB. Its a referees job to get a fighter to his corner anyway so that would make no difference. If Walcott was in on it - shoudlnt he have been making the count from the moment the KD happened and rushed it through as soon as possible?

The fact was Walcott seemed happy to let it go on until someone in the audience told him he should have stopped it - so he did. Walcott was just incompetant

If I was Liston and wanted to take a dive I'd have gone down off a better looking punch the the 1 he went down from.

I think Liston was caught off balance went down. Didnt want to get up until Ali went back in case he took a shot and was stopped unfairly.
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Old 10-08-2007, 04:48 PM   #17
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Default Re: What if Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) never was?

Im really not sure about that punch, something landed and Listons reactions seems to be an instant collapse. Maybe the speed of the punch messed up his equilibrium
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Old 10-08-2007, 04:50 PM   #18
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Default Re: What if Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) never was?

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Originally Posted by amy
Then ESPNC would HAVE to play something else.
You'd turn on ESPN and see Frazier boxing in a packed stadium against a nonexistent opponent, with Cossell commentating.
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Old 10-08-2007, 07:36 PM   #19
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Default Re: What if Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) never was?

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
Liston is the most interesting. He would have held the championship a while longer, I think, but the films show an aging and visibly slowing fighter. If he blew the championship in 1965 or 1966 to Terrell or Chuvalo or Bonavena, his reputation might be a lot lower today. With Sonny getting old, training haphazardly, and believing his own clippings, such an upset might not be off the charts.

If Liston might be the big loser, I see Holmes as the big winner. If Young doesn't get to Foreman, Holmes might have, and a win over a prime George would have been Larry's signature victory and cemented a position at least in the top four or so for even his doubters.
Holmes is a top six alltime in my book, maybe a top 5.

That said, he would have been KO'd early and brutally by Big George.

Same goes for Young, only worse.

Ali took away Foreman's aura of invincibility. Without Kinshasa, Foreman would have ruled the division for another 6 years or so.
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Old 10-08-2007, 09:11 PM   #20
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Default Re: What if Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) never was?

Liston would have reigned for a few more years. Frazier would have lost to Foreman anyway, despite being slightly less "ruined" after avoiding the 15 rounds of punishment he suffered at the hands of Ali. Foreman would've reigned til possibly Holmes.
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