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Old 03-18-2010, 12:58 PM   #46
mr. magoo
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Default Re: My all time great top heavyweights list

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=frankenfrank;6344606]maybe vitali too would have been better prepared for a rematch , and i do not mean physically .

He knew this was the biggest fight of his career going in the first time, and looked plenty focussed to me.. I don't know what he would have done differently the second time.

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again , lewis below vitali is not because of the outcome of their fight but because lewis was KO'd twice while vitali was never KO'd as a pro. that's why he is above lewis ,
So we're going to ignore the fact that Lewis's win list is head over heels better than Vitali's, along with the fact that he was a recognized unified champion and avenged both of his losses, whereas Vitali never avenged a single defeat?



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had lewis KO'd him , he may have been above him in my list , but he did not.
So beating a man via stoppage is not considered as a legitimate win to you? Because if it isn't, then there are a good many of Vitiali's wins that wouldn't count for shit.


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and also , lewis , in 2 fights could not stop an elder holyfield than the one whom was KO'd by bowe.
What the hell does that have to do with Klitschko? Name one opponent who Vitali ever beat that was better than even a 36 year old Holyfield?
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:09 PM   #47
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You said your list was head to head match up based. Stop twisting it so you can get your hero first.
(1) vitali is not my hero , neither one of my favorites
(2) h2h comparison between 2 fighters is most effected from their h2h fight , if there has been such , but is always effected from their common opponents , or some degree of opponents.
(3) vitali's outcome against lewis does not imply too much , it was stopped on cuts , no knockout , not even a knockdown.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:19 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
(3) vitali's outcome against lewis does not imply too much , it was stopped on cuts , no knockout , not even a knockdown.
A stoppage on cuts is a legitimate win, especially if the cut was caused by a punch. Given that Lewis on the very ass end of his career and still managed to find a way to win, I think it speaks volumes about who was better..
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:21 PM   #49
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(1) vitali is not my hero , neither one of my favorites
(2) h2h comparison between 2 fighters is most effected from their h2h fight , if there has been such , but is always effected from their common opponents , or some degree of opponents.
(3) vitali's outcome against lewis does not imply too much , it was stopped on cuts , no knockout , not even a knockdown.
Stop talking shite. You said your list is head to head based. This = Lewis being above Vitali. If you're taking into account 'degree of opponents', then Lewis is even further ahead of Klitschko.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:25 PM   #50
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So we're going to ignore the fact that Lewis's win list is head over heels better than Vitali's, along with the fact that he was a recognized unified champion and avenged both of his losses, whereas Vitali never avenged a single defeat?
which defeat do you want him to avenge ?
did he get a rematch with lewis ?
he has been dismantling when he retired.
when he came back , you know what a byrd rematch could prove then.
also , his lesser brother proved enough what would vitali do to byrd had he was not so injury overloaded.

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So beating a man via stoppage is not considered as a legitimate win to you? Because if it isn't, then there are a good many of Vitiali's wins that wouldn't count for shit.
there can be more than one reason for a stoppage as you know , cuts mean less than a real knockout / brain damage danger for me.
lewis' win does mean something , don't get me wrong.

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What the hell does that have to do with Klitschko? Name one opponent who Vitali ever beat that was better than even a 36 year old Holyfield?
holyfield was 37 by the time he fought lewis , i think kirk johnson was more dangerous than holyfield at that point. corrie sanders and ross puritty surely meant something , and so did danny williams at the time they fought , just after knocking out mike tyson. peter , gomez , arreola and larry donald also meant something and maybe except donald and williams were more dangerous than a 37 years old former cruiserweight and already stopped evander holyfield.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:27 PM   #51
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Stop talking shite. You said your list is head to head based. This = Lewis being above Vitali. If you're taking into account 'degree of opponents', then Lewis is even further ahead of Klitschko.
by degree of opponents i meant recursive opponents , like opponents of opponents , etc , on the path that connects the two fighters.
like beating the man whom beat the man and such.
lewis was KO'd twice , vitali none , they fought , but it did not last the distance and lewis didn't KO vitali .
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:32 PM   #52
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by degree of opponents i meant recursive opponents , like opponents of opponents , etc , on the path that connects the two fighters.
like beating the man whom beat the man and such.
lewis was KO'd twice , vitali none , they fought , but it did not last the distance and lewis didn't KO vitali .
What has that got to do with anything?
He beat him. He has to be higher head to head. Simple as that. Vitali has been stopped twice, just as many times as Lewis was. You're spewing shite out of your arse.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:36 PM   #53
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=frankenfrank;6344929]which defeat do you want him to avenge ?
did he get a rematch with lewis ?
he has been dismantling when he retired.
when he came back , you know what a byrd rematch could prove then.
also , his lesser brother proved enough what would vitali do to byrd had he was not so injury overloaded.
Regardless of Vitali's reasons for never avenging those losses, you can't take away the merit from Lewis for avenging his and having the claim to have beaten every man he ever faced.

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there can be more than one reason for a stoppage as you know , cuts mean less than a real knockout / brain damage danger for me.
lewis' win does mean something , don't get me wrong.
A knockout would have been more decisive, but let's face it, Vitali would have needed a miracle to win that fight.. Lewis was starting to take over and land more shots as time went on.. with a cut of that magnitude, bad things were bound to happen.. A lucky punch is about the only thing that would have saved Vitali.

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holyfield was 37 by the time he fought lewis , i think kirk johnson was more dangerous than holyfield at that point. corrie sanders and ross puritty surely meant something , and so did danny williams at the time they fought , just after knocking out mike tyson. peter , gomez , arreola and larry donald also meant something and maybe except donald and williams were more dangerous than a 37 years old former cruiserweight and already stopped evander holyfield.
You talk about Holyfield being 37 years of age, but then procede to mention Ross Purity who was a pure journeyman, Kirk Johnson who was an out of shape 260 lb whale, and Corrie Sanders who was 38 years old, off for 13 months and was basically nobody before beating Vitalis brother... And also Larry Donald and Danny Williams?? Who gives a **** about the fact that Williams knocked out a totally shot Tyson.. Lewis Knocked out a shot Tyson as well, only difference being, he was two years younger when Lewis did it. Christ, you basically had to list Vitali's entire resume just to try and justify having a win that was better than Lewis's victory over Holyfield, which wasn't even his best to begin with... Do you want me to list all of Lennox's best wins? If you ask me, I think your tactics here are reflecting a bit of selective bias.
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:37 PM   #54
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What has that got to do with anything?
He beat him. He has to be higher head to head. Simple as that. Vitali has been stopped twice, just as many times as Lewis was. You're spewing shite out of your arse.
lewis KO'd rahman , rahman KO'd lewis whom should be higher h2h ?
and according to you McCall deserves being rated higher than lewis , why are you so quiet about this ?
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Old 03-18-2010, 01:47 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
Regardless of Vitali's reasons for never avenging those losses, you can't take away the merit from Lewis for avenging his and having the claim to have beaten every man he ever faced.
very convincing , like lewis' win over McCall , and over vitali , too.
and ending a legit 1:1 against rahman , that's what i call : proving superiority.

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
A knockout would have been more decisive, but let's face it, Vitali would have needed a miracle to win that fight.. Lewis was starting to take over and land more shots as time went on.. with a cut of that magnitude, bad things were bound to happen.. A lucky punch is about the only thing that would have saved Vitali.
vitali did not get a rematch b/c lewis retired instead of facing him again.
you can argue a lot about my list , what is your list ? it definitely has much worse flaws than mine.
and i already explained the difference between vitali's losses and lewis'.
the only man whom could somehow claim he beat vitali is lewis.
there are 2 men whom badly stopped lewis worse than his stoppage of vitali , and lewis ended a legit and poor 1:1 against one of them and never really beat the other.

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
You talk about Holyfield being 37 years of age, but then procede to mention Ross Purity who was a pure journeyman, Kirk Johnson who was an out of shape 260 lb whale, and Corrie Sanders who was 38 years old, off for 13 months and was basically nobody before beating Vitalis brother... If you ask me, I think you tactics here are reflecting a bit of selective bias.
i have no bias towards vitali except him being the better fighter as i already explained.
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:04 PM   #56
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=frankenfrank;6345064]very convincing , like lewis' win over McCall , and over vitali , too.
and ending a legit 1:1 against rahman , that's what i call : proving superiority.
Compared to quitting on your stool against Chris Byrd, getting your face punched off by a 38 year old man in his last fight, and having your best wins comes against Corrie Sanders and Sam Peter, I'd say its exremely convincing.

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vitali did not get a rematch b/c lewis retired instead of facing him again.
And had he kicked his ass again ( which he would have ), you'd be screaming for a third fight. Hell, I don't think Klit fans would ever let Lewis retire until Vitali FINALLY got his "W", and then of course that would be the ONLY meeting of the bunch that counted...Right?


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you can argue a lot about my list , what is your list ? it definitely has much worse flaws than mine.
Okay let's do this:

Lennox Lewis's 10 best wins

- Razor Ruddock
- David Tua
- Vitali Klitschko
- Gary Mason
- Andrew Golata
- Frank Bruno
- Shannon Briggs
- Michael Grant
- Frans Botha
- Evander Holyfield

Vitali Klitschko's 10 best wins

- Corrie Sanders
- Sam Peter
- Herbie Hide
- Larry Donald
- Chris Areola
- Kirk Johnson
- Danny Williams
- Timo Hoffman
- Juan Gomez
- Kevin Johnson

I think its basically a no brainer.





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and i already explained the difference between vitali's losses and lewis'.
the only man whom could somehow claim he beat vitali is lewis.
I think that basically settles the argument, but not in your favor.

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there are 2 men whom badly stopped lewis worse than his stoppage of vitali , and lewis ended a legit and poor 1:1 against one of them and never really beat the other.
He beat Vitali in their actual meeting and avenged his losses against the other two.. I really don't see anything left here to debate.

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i have no bias towards vitali except him being the better fighter as i already explaine.
If you want to go on calling the man the better fighter, then sobeit, but don't try to use tactics that don't work in an effort to make your case, such as down playing his loss to Lewis like it was immaterial, or that Lewis's claim to beating every man he ever faced was irrelevant.... Or claiming that Vitali beat better opponents... These things just make you look like a fool with no knowledge of the classics..
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:40 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by frankenfrank View Post
by degree of opponents i meant recursive opponents , like opponents of opponents , etc , on the path that connects the two fighters.
like beating the man whom beat the man and such.
lewis was KO'd twice , vitali none , they fought , but it did not last the distance and lewis didn't KO vitali .
Why make the big deal bout him being KO'd twice. He avenged both KOs. Plenty of ATGs have been KO'd, its how you come back that sets you apart from the rest. For example Pacquaio has been stopped twice yet i havent heard anyone make a big deal out of it. Dunno if thats the best example to give but im sure you get my drift
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:48 PM   #58
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Default Re: My all time great top heavyweights list

frankenfrank simply makes a bad day fun
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:53 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
Compared to quitting on your stool against Chris Byrd, getting your face punched off by a 38 year old man in his last fight, and having your best wins comes against Corrie Sanders and Sam Peter, I'd say its exremely convincing.
you know why vitali quit against byrd , it had nothing to do with byrd's dangerousness , nor with his brutal punching power.

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
And had he kicked his ass again ( which he would have ), you'd be screaming for a third fight. Hell, I don't think Klit fans would ever let Lewis retire until Vitali FINALLY got his "W", and then of course that would be the ONLY meeting of the bunch that counted...Right?
had it been by decision , i'd still consider vitali the superior fighter as he would have still remained on his feet for the last bell , something lewis had trouble of maintaining.



Okay let's do this:

Lennox Lewis's 10 best wins

- Razor Ruddock (after ruddock having 2 fights against tyson and getting KO'd earlier in his career)
- David Tua (7" shorter than himself)
- Vitali Klitschko (on cuts)
- Gary Mason
- Andrew Golata
- Frank Bruno
- Shannon Briggs
- Michael Grant
- Frans Botha (someone whom was KO'd every time he stepped up the level)
- Evander Holyfield (37 years old and a former cw)

Vitali Klitschko's 10 best wins

- Corrie Sanders
- Sam Peter (knocked down wladimir and lasted the distance against him)
- Herbie Hide
- Larry Donald
- Chris Areola
- Kirk Johnson
- Danny Williams (just after his stoppage of tyson)
- Timo Hoffman
- Juan Gomez (underrated hw whom twice outpointed McCall)
- Kevin Johnson

i do agree lewis' opposition was somewhat better , but only by a small margin.







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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
I think that basically settles the argument, but not in your favor.
what settles the argument is the fact that should someone bet on a fighter between vitali and lewis to win a fight , or at least remain standing , one would better bet on vitali.


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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
He beat Vitali in their actual meeting and avenged his losses against the other two.. I really don't see anything left here to debate.
he never avenged his loss to mccall , and could never do it.
it will always remain mccall KO'd lewis , and then used crack for their rematch , but still remained standing to the end.

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo View Post
If you want to go on calling the man the better fighter, then sobeit, but don't try to use tactics that don't work in an effort to make your case, such as down playing his loss to Lewis like it was immaterial, or that Lewis's claim to beating every man he ever faced was irrelevant.... Or claiming that Vitali beat better opponents... These things just make you look like a fool with no knowledge of the classics..
lewis' claim to beating every man he fought is a lie.
he could never really stop mccall , the other way was withnessed .
did i claim vitali had better opponents ?
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Old 03-18-2010, 02:57 PM   #60
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Why make the big deal bout him being KO'd twice. He avenged both KOs. Plenty of ATGs have been KO'd, its how you come back that sets you apart from the rest. For example Pacquaio has been stopped twice yet i havent heard anyone make a big deal out of it. Dunno if thats the best example to give but im sure you get my drift
lewis did not avenge his loss to mccall.
it should have been a NC , just like mccall's first loss to gomez , and unlike tyson destruction of golotta.
tyson was robbed , lewis benefitted.
was there a drug test before/after mccall-lewis 2 ?
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