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Old 03-18-2010, 07:54 PM   #16
mcvey
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
Not really.

Their first fight under queensbury rules was a masacre.

Their second fight under LPR rules only lasted a long time because Mitchell repeatedly went down without being hit to gain 30 seconds respite.

We have all read and ridiculed the article in which Gene Tunney states that Jack Dempsey could have beaten the four best contenders of the 1950s in the same night.

John L Sullivan probably could have beaten say Charlie Mitcell, Paddy Ryan, Alf Greenfield and Joe Goss in the same night in four rounds apeice.

His prime reign probably represents the biggest disparity between the quality of the champion and the quality of the top contenders of any era in heavyweight history.
They fought in heavy mud ,which no doubt hampered Sullivan more than the lighter Mitchell.
Mitchell was a tough cookie by the way and a renowned street fighter who gave no quarter.
I think Sullivan is probably very underestimated ,and visualized as this fat dissipated man whom Corbett wore down, the young ,in shape, Sully was a powerhouse.
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Old 03-18-2010, 08:15 PM   #17
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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With no film its hard to say just how good or over rated Sullivan was. I do think Sullivan was a bit faster than he's given credit for. I also think Sullivan resume of wins on the thin side. If a match with Peter Jackson could not be made, then why not Slavin, Goddard, Choynski, Fitzsimmons, or Dooley? Slavin, Choynski, or Goddard would rate as Sullivan's best win if he fought them, and defeated them.

Without going off into a tangent with you, I think Johnson struggled when he was matched vs. prime or near prime guys who were close to his size. See the Choynski, Griffin, and Hart defeats. As a champion in his prime, Johnson had a news draw with a past his best 160ish pound O'Brien, and a dubious draw with journeyman in Jim Battling Johnson.

So who wins? I try to rate the man, not the time he fought in. Had Sullivan came around a bit later, he would not have been the bridge from London rules to Queesberry, and would be a bit more polished as a boxer At least that is my take.

In a 20 round match, I'd favor Johnson via decision under the assumption he's in top shape. I also think it could go either way as Sullivan was certainly much better than many who defeated, drew, or gave Johnson a hard nights work in defeat.
Sullivan was past his prime ,and after years of abusing his body ,probably knew in his heart he would not beat Jackson.
Fitz and Choynsky were in their primes as Sullivan was entering the twilight of his .

Sullivan had his last contest in 1892 he had been out of the ring for 4 years and before that had only a 4 rounder against a ham and egger.
In 1892 Choynsky was winning regularly his best win was a 15rd ko over George Godfrey the man considered the best of the black big men , until Jackson stopped him when George was 36.

.Choynsky would probably have been too quick and agile for the slower ill trained Sullivan at that stage of John L's career.Sullivan's wind was gone he could not have rounded himself into the shape needed to catch up with the fleet footed Choynsky,and his big right hand would have been useless, without the ability to get in range and deliver it.

Fitz too, though still fighting mostly middle weights, had stopped Maher .

Sullivan was most likely lucky not to face a precise punch picker like Fitz in his debauched condition.

Slavin never recovered from the belting Jackson gave him and became an alcoholic ,racing Jackson for dependency on the demon drink.
Prime for prime I think Sullivan kos Choynsky ,whose chin was not of the best.
Sully v Fitz would be titanic.Jackson too.
I think Sullivan would walk through Slavin[Only registered and activated users can see links. ]Godfrey ,whom Sullivan was once matched to fight,he was 40 when Choynsky kod him in 15 rds

Last edited by mcvey; 03-21-2010 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:27 AM   #18
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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What are the rules? How many rounds? How big is the ring? Gloves or no gloves?

I'll assume Queensberry rules.

The longer the fight and the smaller the ring, the better Sullivan's chances.

The shorter the fight and the larger the ring the better Johnson chances
Of course the conditions matter in a huge way ... no matter how you slice it I like JOhnson. Sullivan was a physical marvel by all accounts ... exceptionally fast hands true one punch power ... a great chin and stamina. However, he was never trained as a boxer, ever. He was self taught. All the talent in the world but was really more of a strong contest man as far as advanced training goes ....

There is little doubt in my mind that a Sullvan that was trained would have been an all time terror as a cruiser at least along the lines of a Dempsey or Marciano ... however, boxing is a science and he lacked the training to win a decision over Johnson who would have poked and held his way to a decision win ...
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Old 03-19-2010, 08:45 AM   #19
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

We know that Sullivan was almost certainly faster, bigger and a harder hitter than Choynski. So, if he lands cleanly, i think he finishes the fight. Prime Sullivan also has far better Stamina than Ancient Jeffries, and you know that if Johnson wins this one, he must knock Sullivan down and out, much like Corbett. We can also say, with pretty reasonable confidence, that if Johnson shows up in the shape he did to many of his title defences, Sullivan knocks him out cold. Let us not forget that virtually no one went four rounds with Sullivan, much less longer.

And let us not also forget that many people, particularly those from Jack Johnson's era, considered that the older fighters who were trained and used to much tougher conditions were actually better fighters. Jack fought quite a few fighters who were active towards the end of John L's time, none of whom were in his league, and several of those fared better than average against Jack.

In fairness though, Jack did improve since this time and Johnson was certainly better than Jim Corbett who KOd the older Sullivan and anyone else that Sullivan fought, for that matter. And by quite a bit. And Jack would crowd John L, grab his arms from the inside and generally make it near impossible for John L to land clean.

I think that the bigger Johnson might surprise John L with his strength in the clinches, just like he surprised Jeffries. And this could make things interesting. I definitely see Sullivan being frustrated for long periods, not hitting Jack cleanly and generally flirting with DQs, by using headbutts and other roughhouse tactics.

There is no way that this fight is scheduled for anything but a fight to the finish, and you would have to think that this would favour John L, but i wouldnt overemphasize that advantage. Jack Johnson will land his uppercut plenty on John L and this will tire him out. In fact, a dominant Jack Johnson win wouldnt surprise me at all, but i have to say, at the moment i do lean towards John L Sullivan landing the big knockout blow at some stage, whether it is early or late, and doing what Choynski did.
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Old 03-19-2010, 10:48 AM   #20
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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We know that Sullivan was almost certainly faster, bigger and a harder hitter than Choynski. So, if he lands cleanly, i think he finishes the fight. Prime Sullivan also has far better Stamina than Ancient Jeffries, and you know thatknock Sullivan down and out if Johnson wins this one, he must knock Sullivan down and out , much like Corbett. We can also say, with pretty reasonable confidence, that if Johnson shows up in the shape he did to many of his title defences, Sullivan knocks him out cold. Let us not forget that virtually no one went four rounds with Sullivan, much less longer.

And let us not also forget that many people, particularly those from Jack Johnson's era, considered that the older fighters who were trained and used to much tougher conditions were actually better fighters. Jack fought quite a few fighters who were active towards the end of John L's time, none of whom were in his league, and several of those fared better than average against Jack.

In fairness though, Jack did improve since this time and Johnson was certainly better than Jim Corbett who KOd the older Sullivan and anyone else that Sullivan fought, for that matter. And by quite a bit. And Jack would crowd John L, grab his arms from the inside and generally make it near impossible for John L to land clean.

I think that the bigger Johnson might surprise John L with his strength in the clinches, just like he surprised Jeffries. And this could make things interesting. I definitely see Sullivan being frustrated for long periods, not hitting Jack cleanly and generally flirting with DQs, by using headbutts and other roughhouse tactics.

There is no way that this fight is scheduled for anything but a fight to the finish, and you would have to think that this would favour John L, but i wouldnt overemphasize that advantage. Jack Johnson will land his uppercut plenty on John L and this will tire him out. In fact, a dominant Jack Johnson win wouldnt surprise me at all, but i have to say, at the moment i do lean towards John L Sullivan landing the big knockout blow at some stage, whether it is early or late, and doing what Choynski did.
I don't think Johnson was prime when he was stopped by Choynsky,as to whether Sullivan hit harder than Joe, is debatable.
I don't know why Johnson has to stop Sullivan to win he could just as easly outpoint him over 20rds,imo.
I agree anything less than a fit and focused Johnson is in dire danger of losing this ala Hart.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:14 AM   #21
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

To answer the question whether Sullivan hit harder than Choynski, who KO'd Johnson, Joe himself said he didn't hit one-tenth as hard as Sullivan.

From John L. Sullivan: The Career of the First Gloved Heavyweight Champion:

While in Australia, Joe Choynski told the press there that Sullivan was the king of the ring and could defeat Goddard, Jackson, Slavin, or anyone else. “I don’t think the man ever put on a glove who could have a look in it with him when he’s well, and you can take what I’m telling you for Gospel, and good Gospel at that.”

When asked by Smiler, a well known Australian writer, whether Sullivan could land his right swing on a big shifty fellow with a good jab like Jackson, Choynski responded,

You have never seen Sully fight, Smiler. His right arm don’t do any swinging; it comes across like a flash of lightning with a jerk, and if he misses he’s so quick you can’t get your head out of range before it’s back ready for another shot at your jaw, and how it does fly, ping, ping. I think he’ll land on Jackson right enough if he meets him….

People in this country don’t understand the color line, and therefore they can’t grip Sullivan’s prejudice against Jackson properly, but you may rest easy that John is afraid of no man breathing. Personally, I wish he would fight Jackson, for I know how long the fight would last, and who would win it.

Choynski had seen Jackson fight and had even sparred him, so he had a basis for his opinion. Although Choynski himself did not draw the color line, he understood Sullivan’s position and did not believe it was due to fear.

As for Joe Goddard, Choynski complimented him as a good fighter because the Australian had twice defeated Choynski via KO4 in 1891, although he had managed to deck Goddard. However, Choynski also said,

I don’t think he’d have a ghost of a show with Sullivan. You see, it’s this way. Sullivan is quicker than I am, and he hits with terrible power. If I’d a tenth of Sullivan’s force I’d have beaten Goddard both times I fought him, but I hadn’t it. Now, it’s easy to figure it out. I think, honestly, that John would smash him down with very little trouble.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:49 AM   #22
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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I don't think Johnson was prime when he was stopped by Choynsky,as to whether Sullivan hit harder than Joe, is debatable.
I don't know why Johnson has to stop Sullivan to win he could just as easly outpoint him over 20rds,imo.
I agree anything less than a fit and focused Johnson is in dire danger of losing this ala Hart.
Rules of the day. This would be a no decision fight. And a no decision is the most likely outcome imo. But Sullivan knocking out Johnson is more of a possibility than the otherway round IMO.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:55 AM   #23
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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Rules of the day. This would be a no decision fight. And a no decision is the most likely outcome imo. But Sullivan knocking out Johnson is more of a possibility than the otherway round IMO.
No, my thread ,I make the rules, its 20rds to a dec or, earlier if there is a stoppage, or retirement.
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Old 03-19-2010, 11:59 AM   #24
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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To answer the question whether Sullivan hit harder than Choynski, who KO'd Johnson, Joe himself said he didn't hit one-tenth as hard as Sullivan.

From John L. Sullivan: The Career of the First Gloved Heavyweight Champion:

While in Australia, Joe Choynski told the press there that Sullivan was the king of the ring and could defeat Goddard, Jackson, Slavin, or anyone else. “I don’t think the man ever put on a glove who could have a look in it with him when he’s well, and you can take what I’m telling you for Gospel, and good Gospel at that.”

When asked by Smiler, a well known Australian writer, whether Sullivan could land his right swing on a big shifty fellow with a good jab like Jackson, Choynski responded,

You have never seen Sully fight, Smiler. His right arm don’t do any swinging; it comes across like a flash of lightning with a jerk, and if he misses he’s so quick you can’t get your head out of range before it’s back ready for another shot at your jaw, and how it does fly, ping, ping. I think he’ll land on Jackson right enough if he meets him….

People in this country don’t understand the color line, and therefore they can’t grip Sullivan’s prejudice against Jackson properly, but you may rest easy that John is afraid of no man breathing. Personally, I wish he would fight Jackson, for I know how long the fight would last, and who would win it.

Choynski had seen Jackson fight and had even sparred him, so he had a basis for his opinion. Although Choynski himself did not draw the color line, he understood Sullivan’s position and did not believe it was due to fear.

As for Joe Goddard, Choynski complimented him as a good fighter because the Australian had twice defeated Choynski via KO4 in 1891, although he had managed to deck Goddard. However, Choynski also said,

I don’t think he’d have a ghost of a show with Sullivan. You see, it’s this way. Sullivan is quicker than I am, and he hits with terrible power. If I’d a tenth of Sullivan’s force I’d have beaten Goddard both times I fought him, but I hadn’t it. Now, it’s easy to figure it out. I think, honestly, that John would smash him down with very little trouble.
Very insightful, thank you very much.Choynsky certainly seems to be a huge Sullivan booster,interesting the comparison between Jackson,and Sullivan.
Choynsky had endorsements concerning his power from Corbett,Fitz Jeffries ,and Johnson, yet he readily concedes Sullivan was a harder hitter and ,moreover faster too.

Last edited by mcvey; 03-19-2010 at 01:28 PM.
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Old 03-19-2010, 12:00 PM   #25
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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No, my thread ,I make the rules, its 20rds to a dec or, earlier if there is a stoppage, or retirement.
okay then I favour Johnson on points.
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Old 03-19-2010, 01:30 PM   #26
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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okay then I favour Johnson on points.
Sorry, I just added a cut off period to the thread, your prediction falls outside it.
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Old 03-20-2010, 07:43 AM   #27
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

I had also read Choynski , a monster hitter in his own right, saying after seeing Sully live that John's power was tremendous ... he was flattening men with one shot back in days when KO's were infreguent .. he was like the Babe Ruth of the KO ...
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Old 03-20-2010, 07:45 AM   #28
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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Very insightful, thank you very much.Choynsky certainly seems to be a huge Sullivan booster,interesting the comparison between Jackson,and Sullivan.
Choynsky had endorsements concerning his power from Corbett,Fitz Jeffries ,and Johnson, yet he readily concedes Sullivan was a harder hitter and ,moreover faster too.
Corbett said Jeffries and Fitz hit harder than Sullivan, and he fought all three of them. Did Choynski ever spar with Sullivan?
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Old 03-20-2010, 07:59 AM   #29
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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Corbett said Jeffries and Fitz hit harder than Sullivan, and he fought all three of them. Did Choynski ever spar with Sullivan?
I assume Apollack has researched this , but it is entirely possible that the dissipated Sullivan Corbett fought, did not hit him as hard as a younger more vigorous,prime Sully might have done.
Sullivan had real trouble catching up to the fleeter Corbett,a younger John L would probably have connected more solidly and regularly.
Don't know if Choynsky sparred with Sullivan or not.
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Old 03-21-2010, 07:19 PM   #30
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Default Re: "Cap'n John" v "Lil Arthur"

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Did Choynski ever spar with Sullivan?
Yes.

Alegedly, the older Sullivan had to take it easy on him.
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