What could Patterson have done differently against Liston?

[albinored]

To use Patterson's beating Chuvalo shows that he could have beaten Liston is like saying Saddler's beating Pep proves he could have beaten Jake Lamotta. no way...no style would have made a difference. on the outside liston would just have jabbed him until the crowd pleaded for the fight to be stopped, as looking at Patterson's face would have been too much for even hardened fight fans, and on the inside...well, we know what happened there, don't we. (no question mark; rhetorical question.)

This is my first post on this forum, and I'm glad I was able to make it factual one instead of just an opinion.

[janitor]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

This is very interesting.
If Liston was not that highly regarded, how much was thought of him after the two Clay fights?

I think it is after the Patterson fights that they started to build him up into a demi god.

You can see from the general forum how a fighter is as good as their last fight.

After the Ali fights he sliped right back down to about the level of Max Baer.

[fg2227]

The only way patterson could beat liston is with a machine gun. Even then you gotta fancy liston.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Duodenum

Floyd demonstrated against Chuvalo that he was capable of moving laterally, and ducking under Liston's shots while on the move. What he did against Chuvalo is what he should have attempted with Sonny.

Chuvalo had a poor jab and average power not a good facsimile of Liston.

[Holmes' Jab]

Originally Posted by janitor

I am minded to say that his best option would be not to sign the contract however-

The most critical thing with Liston is not to come towards him. This is exactly what he feeds off. Once you deny him that he has a long night on his hands.

I would advise Patterson to make Liston force the fight, use lateral movment to prevent him from setting up the jab. It probably wont work but it might make things more competitive.

A fair shout.

[DavidPayne]

Logically, you could look to the subsequent Ali performances for the blue print to defeating Liston, but though of equivalent speed of hand Patterson lacked Ali's resolve, his chin and self-belief.

Patterson is sometimes cruely reviewed by historians, but he was a tremendous fighter, fast with a thudding punch but deeply flawed in the mental aspect of the sport and his defence was porous too.

I don't think Patterson could have found a game plan to resist Liston, it's simply a fight he couldn't win. Liston was fresher then too and hungrier.

Liston was a monster at his best.

[Quick Cash]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Chuvalo had a poor jab and average power not a good facsimile of Liston.

You have to wonder though why he didn't opt to employ the same strategy against a bigger puncher in Liston. I mean if he was already reticent against a light hitting Chuvalo, logically he would have avoided Sonny's punches more actively. Instead he was caught cold twice in two fights.

[DavidPayne]

I think David Remnick covers Patterson's complex pyschology and it does, in a fashion, explain why he may have been caught.

It could also of course simply be Liston was a country mile better at throwing punches than Chuvalo.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by albinored

To use Patterson's beating Chuvalo shows that he could have beaten Liston is like saying Saddler's beating Pep proves he could have beaten Jake Lamotta. no way...no style would have made a difference. on the outside liston would just have jabbed him until the crowd pleaded for the fight to be stopped, as looking at Patterson's face would have been too much for even hardened fight fans, and on the inside...well, we know what happened there, don't we. (no question mark; rhetorical question.)

This is my first post on this forum, and I'm glad I was able to make it factual one instead of just an opinion.

Welcome to the boards! (Does this mean I can retire from here now?) Of course I said nothing about whether or not Floyd could have ever beaten Sonny, merely that he might have done better had he attempted the approach he employed against Chuvalo.

Patterson's actual tactics against Liston were suicidal, just as the way Mike Spinks tried to start against Tyson was.

Some have suggested that the Patterson of Johansson II, who unleashed "The Left Hook from Hell," might have been far better suited mentally for putting up significant resistance against Sonny.

Could Floyd have survived against Liston as Eddie Machen did? Whether he could or couldn't, there's no question that Sonny had him as mentally beaten beforehand as Ali did Quarry.

[DocDevil]

Floyd coulda done some things to make the fight go longer,but woulda been in trouble after the first good Liston punch.

[frankwornank]

The short answer is he could not have done differently. Floyd had excellent power and great hand speed. He really only knew one way to fight and that was aggressive.

He did not have great leg movement. He was a bit slow footed. (In part this was due to the fact he had one leg slightly shorter than the other) I f you ever observed him walk, he kind of swaggered due to that shorter leg.

He developed his style in the middleweight and light heavy divisions where he was as strong or stronger than his opponents. When he moved up to heavyweight, his style remained the same. However, he was now fighting bigger and sometimes stronger guys.

Floyd continued to do pretty well because he was pound for pound a real good fighter.

Bottom line is, some of the heavyweights (mainly Ali and Liston were too big for him)

[Stonehands89]

To a large degree, Floyd's chances would be decided by Liston's approach. If Liston just disdainfully goes at him in a tight formation looking for the KO, Floyd will fall 8 out of 10 times. Floyd just doesn't have the physicality or the chin to survive without a lot of luck.

Conventional wisdom would advise trying to land that left hook, but Liston was prepared for that. The alternative would be to develop a surprise shot -I'd say an overhand right designed to catch Liston coming in and then land the left if he hesitates or his staggered. Overhand rights can be a lethal weapon against taller, aggressive guys.

The simple answer here is "probably nothing."

[ironchamp]

The first comparision that came to mind with regards to this fight was

Tommy Morrison vs. George Foreman.

Morrison's use of lateral movement put him away from harms length long enough to earn him the decision.

For Patterson to have pulled this off he needs to keep away and flurry and use lots of lateral movement and try to make his handspeed a factor. Slow down the tempo of the fight and he can't be afraid to let his hands go when Liston makes a mistake. He needs to earn the respect of Liston at some point otherwise its inevitable. Could he have pulled it off? Probably not but I think with the right strategy it could have been possible.

[ChrisPontius]

Another big disadvantage besides those already listed, is that Liston is very adept at blocking the left hook with his right glove. Straight punches (or perhaps uppercuts from a taller fighter) seem to be more succesful against him.

[Duodenum]

Originally Posted by ChrisPontius

Another big disadvantage besides those already listed, is that Liston is very adept at blocking the left hook with his right glove. Straight punches (or perhaps uppercuts from a taller fighter) seem to be more succesful against him.

Right. It should be noted that Floyd did have excellent power in both hands. The first knockdown he scored in the rubber match with Ingo was a very short and straight right. Patterson would have been wise to use the hook as a decoy for his right. (It might not have made a difference in the outcome, but we'll never know.)