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Old 04-03-2010, 02:31 PM   #31
burt bienstock
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Old Fogey...No they could have never palmed Bobby ****s off Brow? Why ,because Bobby ****s was one of the very top welterweights of that rich time,well known to all the boxing world then...I am SURE the announcer introduced Robinson's opponent as Bobby ****s,and all the crowd, the judges, the officials, and myself, young as I was then would Know a scam...Besides OF, I would get tickets to fightsv then in advance, and money was tight for me then, and the name Billy Brown /Robinson, would have been NO incentive for me to go by trains to watch a Billy Brown ,against an immortal, Ray Robinson...Never would have bought the ticket...After all, Isaw the prime Ray Robinson,fight Henry Arnmstrong, and Jimmy McDaniels, before in MSG, NY...I knew Bobby ****s fine record and reputation then, knew he was as tall as Ray,and a fine right hand puncher...It wasn't Bobby Brown I KNOW...Besides , historians are not convinced that William Shakespeare, the actor wrote his plays, or someone else at that time...A mistake was made in the early 1950s, and the truth may be buried with Robinson and Bobby ****s...B.B...
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Old 04-03-2010, 02:36 PM   #32
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Maybe some old issues of Ring would carry reports of this fight? I've got a few from the early 50's, there maybe something in there?
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Old 04-03-2010, 02:39 PM   #33
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Old Fogey...No they could have never palmed Bobby ****s off Brow? Why ,because Bobby ****s was one of the very top welterweights of that rich time,well known to all the boxing world then...I am SURE the announcer introduced Robinson's opponent as Bobby ****s,and all the crowd, the judges, the officials, and myself, young as I was then would Know a scam...Besides OF, I would get tickets to fightsv then in advance, and money was tight for me then, and the name Billy Brown /Robinson, would have been NO incentive for me to go by trains to watch a Billy Brown ,against an immortal, Ray Robinson...Never would have bought the ticket...After all, Isaw the prime Ray Robinson,fight Henry Arnmstrong, and Jimmy McDaniels, before in MSG, NY...I knew Bobby ****s fine record and reputation then, knew he was as tall as Ray,and a fine right hand puncher...It wasn't Bobby Brown I KNOW...Besides , historians are not convinced that William Shakespeare, the actor wrote his plays, or someone else at that time...A mistake was made in the early 1950s, and the truth may be buried with Robinson and Bobby ****s...B.B...
Okay. Just a thought. You are making the excellent point that because the newspapers or records say this is the fact does not mean it really happened that way.

And except for you, none of us were actually there to judge the veracity of these records.
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Old 04-03-2010, 03:04 PM   #34
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Old Fogey and Burt, Oh man, I dug some more to possibly substantiate a possible same fighter and I only drew more damning evidence. I checked into Bobby's August fight with Chico Pacheco, his Sept. 13th fight with Glen Hendershot and his Oct. 23 fight with Gaby Ferland to see if the Robinson fight in the Velodrome was mentioned. Nothing was mentioned about the Robinson fight other than in the Ferland fight mentioning that Robinson and ****s were scheduled to fight the following month. I did find the piece on the announcement of Robinson-****s which was signed Oct. 18th. It says, "Ray Robinson will box Bobby ****s of San Antonio in a non-title 10 rounder at Chicago Stadium Nov. 8. The bout was announced by Truman Gibson, secretary of the IBC. ****s has lost only one fight in the past two years and has beaten such foes as Les Felton, Frankie Abrams and Charlie Salas." Also, remember in my previous post I found that error to the Billy Brown-Jimmy Curl fight? Well, heres the retraction, "The AP incorrectly reported the result of the Billy Brown-Jimmy Curl fight Monday night at the Coral Gables Coliseum in Miami. Brown, of Hartford, won a split decision over Curl of San Antonio. Bobby Gleason, manager of Brown, said his fighter suffered a slight cut over his right eye but expected to sign for a bout with Bobby ****s at Miami within three weeks. Brown lost a 10 round decision Sept. 4 to Ray Robinson, welterweight champion and top middleweight contender." Obviously they were not the same fighter (although they never actually fought). The San Antonio papers covered absolutely everything on ****s. He was obviously the favored son at the time even though he had relocated to Miami. I'm sorry I couldn't have found something corroborative, Burt. Is it possible this could have happened on a different date?

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Old 04-03-2010, 03:06 PM   #35
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Default Re: A minor boxing mystery to solve-need input

scartissue it says ****s had only lost once before facing Robinson, that is incorrect.
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Old 04-03-2010, 03:11 PM   #36
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I know, I checked it out too, he lost to both Lester Felton in '50 and Frankie Abrams in '49. Their "lost only 1 fight in the past 2 years" is incorrect.

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Old 04-03-2010, 03:13 PM   #37
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As per suggestion by mcvey,I am putting this boxing quandry on a thread...Maybe someone on ESB can help...In 1950 to 1952 I saw Ray Robinson fight Bobby ****s in the old Coney Island Veledrome,in NY...It was in the summer at this old open air arena...I remember Robinson arriving late and we saw Robinson and his entourage depart from his Fuscia colored Cadillac,for his dressing room...Robinson won the dec. from Bobby ****s...For years I have checked boxrec,and other sources and it was never in their records...In fact boxrec has Bobby ****s listed as a Southpaw,which I remember that ****s fought Orthodox...Well,last week I saw a film on youtube,from Chicago of Robinson/****s and sure enough I was correct...****s was orthodox...Boxrec was incorrect...Boxrec also has Robinson fighting a Billy Brown,Sept.4,1950, New York...I checked on boxrec and there is no bio of a Billy Brown,middleweight of that time...All I know is that I was at the Bobby ****s/Ray Robinson fight ,Coney Island Velodrome,in the 1950-1952 era, record books be damned...Any suggestions fans.?Any boxing sleuths on ESB?
Burt I am in no way trying to dispute what you claim to have seen, and as many have said on your behalf not all of the records of the past have been accurately recorded which further muddles the situation. But as for Boxrec they have ****s listed as orthodox and not southpaw on the page I refrenced???

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Old 04-03-2010, 03:24 PM   #38
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Scartissue, Thinking of that fight between Ray Robinson? bobby ****s at CIv.I have a deep visceral feeling ,then and now, that they fought once before...And I believe that the fight I saw was later on 1950-52...
Jack Dempsey,thanks for the suggestion, so overlooked by me, of rereading my old Ring Magazines of the 1950s, which I have at home...I will get home in about one month,and will look through those old 1950s editions...Why haven't I thought about that before? Until then , hoping someone on ESB can beat me to the punch...Thanks fellows, B.B.
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Old 04-03-2010, 03:31 PM   #39
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Scartissue, Thinking of that fight between Ray Robinson? bobby ****s at CIv.I have a deep visceral feeling ,then and now, that they fought once before...And I believe that the fight I saw was later on 1950-52...
Jack Dempsey,thanks for the suggestion, so overlooked by me, of rereading my old Ring Magazines of the 1950s, which I have at home...I will get home in about one month,and will look through those old 1950s editions...Why haven't I thought about that before? Until then , hoping someone on ESB can beat me to the punch...Thanks fellows, B.B.
No worries Burt, I've a few from around that time but the only one with a SRR fight report in is for the St Valentines Day Massacre

Good luck in your search
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Old 04-03-2010, 03:31 PM   #40
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PhillyPhan69....On my boxrec they still have Bobby ****s as a Southpaw, and until ESB and I have corrected that error a few days ago,I have him listed as a right hander...They must have observed ESB...B.B.
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Old 04-03-2010, 04:56 PM   #41
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I was gonna search through old Rings but the bout wasn't picked up by the Ring Record Book so I doubt it'll be found in their mag.
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Old 04-03-2010, 05:18 PM   #42
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This is interesting so I took a look into it. My limited research does not look good, unless ****s was substituted for Brown in 1950.

1. Well, it couldn't have been the summer of 1952, because Robinson was retired.

2. I doubt if it was the summer of 1951 because Robinson was in Europe at that time.

3. Summer of 1950: This would mean it would have been the 1st fight between Robinson and ****s. I just watched and listened to Robinson-****s, November 1950. There is no indication there at all that the two had met previously. Surely they would have at least mentioned it, if they had known about it.

4. Summer of 1953 (or later): Not possible. From Wikipedia: "The last event (at the Velodrome) was an Old-Timers reunion and bicycle race on September 4, 1950. Coney Island Velodrome was torn down and replaced with high-rise housing."

If it happened, it almost had to have happened in 1950. My guess is that ****s replaced Brown, for whatever reason, and the sportswriters in that area didn't pick up on it...again...for whatever reason...and...the people broadcasting the second fight between the two did not know about the first fight.
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Old 04-03-2010, 05:43 PM   #43
burt bienstock
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djanders,first of all...IF Bobby ****s was a replacement for Bobby Brown I had to know of that in advance...Otherwise, as I have posted,I would not have been there thinking it was Brown against Sugar Ray...No way,but if the newspapers mistook the original opponent,Bobby Brown, for his replacement Bobby ****s, and never correcting , the substitute,Bobby ****s,this is in the realm of possibility....Another point...The Coney Island Veledrome stood , where there is now a mini mall, not the high risers, nearby in Cone Island....My best bet is to get back home to research the old Ring Mags of 1950 to 1953...They would have reported accurately the bout in question, substitute or not....B.B...Or someone at ESB, before me...The twilight zone for me, for sure....
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Old 04-03-2010, 07:34 PM   #44
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Burt, I started to think we were on to something there. Maybe Brown was a sub since you wouldn't have bothered with a Robinson-Brown fight. Well that blew up as well. I read on reports the day of the fight that it was to be Robinson-Brown, but how far back was the sub made? I decided to work my way forward from Robinson's bout with Jose Basora (which was on Aug. 25. But I found an AP article on the 27th reporting on Robinson-Basora, stating that Robinson is planning to fight once a month in order to get the title shot at Jake LaMotta. The last short paragraph stated, "The sugar's next bout is with Billy Brown at Coney Island Labor Day." So, the bout was definitely scheduled, it was definitely Brown in there with Robinson (very descriptive articles I found relating to the bout, Brown weighing in at 160 1/2 whereas ****s was a welter) and even on youtube's fight with ****s, the commentator states how Robinson had fought Billy Brown. So, it had to be a different date.

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Old 04-03-2010, 08:23 PM   #45
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Burt could it have been earlier than 1950?
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