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Old 10-09-2007, 02:37 PM   #16
Mendoza
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Default Re: Jack Johsnon news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
So he signed to the fights but they didnt happen? Sounds like the promoters couldnt get the purses together they promised
Not so. H.D. McCintoish was the same man who put the money up for Johnson vs Burns. H.D. McCintoish was very popular in Australia. Simply stated, the money was there for matches with Langford, Jeanette, and McVey. In fact Langford's manager made a very good offer to fight Johnson in England.

I think its time to accept the truth here. Johnson is lucky to have kept his title vs Jim Battling Johnson, and ducked big money matches with Langford, Jeanette, and McVey.

If you find any news articles of promoters failing to deliver, post it here. I have not seen it.
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Old 10-09-2007, 02:54 PM   #17
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Default Re: Jack Johsnon news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Janitor,

Lets be realistic here. Johnson could have fought anyone he wanted to in France, Australia, or Great Brittan.
OK. I don't want it to be thought that I am a blind Johnson apologist here. As you will see from another curently active thread I am rather sceptical of his failure to fight the black dynamite crew.

I do however think that you are being a little cavalier in your analysis and in asigning motives to Johnson.

Quote:
Johnson fought Jim " battling " Johnson in France in December, 1913. Johnson could have fought Jeanette, Langford, or McVey in France or the other countires.
A couple of observations have to be made.

A. Not many promotors would have been prepared to work with a fugative champion.

B. Johnson really had nothing except the title to suport him once in exile so he was probably more reluctant to risk it than previously.

Quote:
Without a doubt, the money was on the table for real title fights for Johnson, and he balked. H.D. Mcintoish, and the other mangers put the money up. These news paper clips show Johnson saying one thing, and doing another. It also shows that Johnson was willing to fight McVey, and the friend ship between the two had nothing to do with a fight happening.
A. The Macintosh offer was put on the table the day before Johnson was arested and inprisoned pending trial under the mann act. He might have had other things on his mind at this point.

B. All these offers came late in Johnsons career when he was in visible decline. Would he necisarily have turned his nose up at such an offer after the Jeffries fight say?

Quote:
As for the Battling Jim Johnson fight, the French papers say it was a 20 round match, and so does the Cyber boxing Zone.
I have seen acounts listing it as 20 and acounts listing it as 10. We have to tread carefully.
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Old 10-09-2007, 03:06 PM   #18
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Janitor,

Promoters will work with anyone. If one venue is out, there are always others.

Johnson was champ from 1908-1915. He had plenty of time, opportunities, and big money offers to fight the best out there. Fights with Langford, Jeanette, McVey, and Smith could have been made. Re-matches with O'Brien and Jim Johnson could have also been made. These were the fights that could have defined Johnson as a champion.

The bottom line ( As I have said before ) is Johnson chose soft touches for title defenses. He was lucky to draw vs O'Brien, and Jim Johnson. IMO, Jim Johnson won that fight.

Johnson also barely got by Moran. The fight could have been called a draw from what I have seen; though I do beleive Johnson was just a shade better.

Johnson did not turn himself in until much later. From 1908-1921, Johnson fought at least once a year, save the years 1911 and 1917. Though Johnson was convicted under the Mann Act law, he never had any legal problems for fleeing the country when out on a bond, smuggling charges, or numerous traffic related tickets. I have read that an estimated 10,000 people were arrested on Mann Act charges.
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Old 10-09-2007, 03:29 PM   #19
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Default Re: Jack Johsnon news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I have some news archives on some of Jack Johnson's clips. Did you know H.D. McIntosh, the famous promoter who put on Burns vs Johnson, offered $50,000 for Johnson to fight Langford, andr McVey, but Johnson did not take it? Jeanette's manger offered $30,000 for the match. So much for the theory that Johnson could make more money fighting the Flynn's, Ross', and Kaufman's of boxing. Johnson is quotes saying he will sign. In fact he did, but the fights did not happen.

Here is the fight review of Jack Johnson vs Battling Jim Johnson. This was history's first all black gloved heavyweight title fight. The true story is the fight was scheduled for 20 rounds, but Jack Johnson quit in the 10th frame. Also, the belt was in dispute after the fight. Read the review and decide for yourself who should have won.

Here's is news read from the New York Times. Enjoy. I plan on posting a few threads on old news reads here. Mostly on historical data that has been misunderstood by " internet " rumors.

Enjoy the reads. I hope the links work.


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You're a little late. Everybody knows about the botched Langford fight.
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Old 10-09-2007, 03:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: Jack Johsnon news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

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You're a little late. Everybody knows about the botched Langford fight.
There were at least two offers to fight Langford. Ar eyou aware of this C.M Clay? One by H.D. Macintoish, the other by Langford's manager in England. Based on Johnson's shaky perfoamces, I think Langford would win.
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Old 10-09-2007, 04:24 PM   #21
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Default Re: Jack Johsnon news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
There were at least two offers to fight Langford. Ar eyou aware of this C.M Clay? One by H.D. Macintoish, the other by Langford's manager in England. Based on Johnson's shaky perfoamces, I think Langford would win.
I am fully aware of the $100,000 gate to fight Langford, and also the McVey & Jeanette fights. However, when Johnson got into legal trouble, the promoters cancelld the fight in order to avoid any trouble.
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Old 10-09-2007, 05:57 PM   #22
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Janitor,

Promoters will work with anyone. If one venue is out, there are always others.
It is good that we share a cynical view of promotors.

Even so working with a fugitive champion is a tough mark for them.

Quote:
Johnson was champ from 1908-1915. He had plenty of time, opportunities, and big money offers to fight the best out there. Fights with Langford, Jeanette, McVey, and Smith could have been made.
Again I am forced into the role of devils advocate

The big money offers to fight the black dynamite crew only came when he was past his best and involved in various trials.


Quote:
Johnson did not turn himself in until much later. From 1908-1921,
He stood trials in 1912/13 and spent time in jail over this period.
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Old 10-09-2007, 10:59 PM   #23
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Default Re: Jack Johsnon news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Hi Mendoza,

Though I am a fan of Johnsons, I agree that the fight with Jim
Johnson should have been a TKO win for Battling Jim. Jack could
not continue due to an injured arm.

Further, it seems like Johnson chose to avoid Langford, because
for a while, Langford was coming on strong and KOing lots
of fighters, whereas Johnson was slowly declining. I think that
Johnson was aware that he was no longer was at the top of his game,
so he fought guys like Frank Moran, tough fighters but not of the
calibre of a Sam Langford or Joe Jeannette. Even Gunboat Smith
would have been a tougher choice than say Moran.

Grebfan9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
There were at least two offers to fight Langford. Ar eyou aware of this C.M Clay? One by H.D. Macintoish, the other by Langford's manager in England. Based on Johnson's shaky perfoamces, I think Langford would win.

Last edited by Korn_06; 07-26-2006 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 10-10-2007, 06:03 AM   #24
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Janitor,

Promoters will work with anyone. If one venue is out, there are always others.

Johnson was champ from 1908-1915. He had plenty of time, opportunities, and big money offers to fight the best out there. Fights with Langford, Jeanette, McVey, and Smith could have been made. Re-matches with O'Brien and Jim Johnson could have also been made. These were the fights that could have defined Johnson as a champion.

The bottom line ( As I have said before ) is Johnson chose soft touches for title defenses. He was lucky to draw vs O'Brien, and Jim Johnson. IMO, Jim Johnson won that fight.

Johnson also barely got by Moran. The fight could have been called a draw from what I have seen; though I do beleive Johnson was just a shade better.

Johnson did not turn himself in until much later. From 1908-1921, Johnson fought at least once a year, save the years 1911 and 1917. Though Johnson was convicted under the Mann Act law, he never had any legal problems for fleeing the country when out on a bond, smuggling charges, or numerous traffic related tickets. I have read that an estimated 10,000 people were arrested on Mann Act charges.
I see that stick is out again.I knew where this was going from the first post,had a little bet with myself.The O Brien fight was a no decision 6 rounder,to win this fight OBrien would have had to stop Johnson ,since he was allmost totally devoid of power this was extremely unlikely,knowing this Johnson didnt train for the fight ,it was a bore Johnson grinned and postured and OBrien ran,luck had nothing to do with it.If a better contender than Jim Johnson had ben in there with Jack that night in paris Johnson would probably have lost his title ,a Gun Boat Smith or a Langford would likely have beaten him on his showing that night ,but then he would probably have been in better shape against a more dangerous opponent.Johnson ,after the Flynn fight was going down hill his dissolute lifestyle and troubles with the law affected his focus, some of his problems ,you could say he brought on himself,,he could have kept in shape ,he could have and should have fought the black challengers as |Champion,though he did beat quite a few when he was a challenger,something the white Champions beforehim largely managed to avoid doing.Johnson wasnt prepared to risk his crown against the best Black men ,in that he followed a well established precedent ,you can say as a Black man he had a moral obligation to aid ,and support his fellow "brothers",but moral s werent Johnsons strong point,Jack Johnson didnt fight for Black equality ,he fought for Jack Johnson,In 12 Years ,and 25 defences Joe Louis fought 2 black challengers ,one was a light heavyweight ,blind in 1 eye,the other ,an old walcott was so lightly regarded the fight was first promoted as an exhibition,I dont hear anyone crying about that,and dont tell me there werent better challengers among the black fighters than Harry Thomas ,Jack Roper,Gus Dorazio etc,Why not just say I dont rate Jack Johnson ,he is very overated ,his reign stinks he fought nobody and let it go at that,instead of making tortous threads to denigrate the man,you can research papers that will report Jeffries couldnt get his face out of the way of a ljab ,and only won his fight by durability and strength but you wont convert the guys that think James J was the nearest thing to Superman so why try?I think some one like Ali would have crucified Jeffries,but I have no interest or desire in trying to persuade Jeffries fan s round to my opinion.
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Old 10-10-2007, 06:07 AM   #25
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
I see that stick is out again.I knew where this was going from the first post,had a little bet with myself.The O Brien fight was a no decision 6 rounder,to win this fight OBrien would have had to stop Johnson ,since he was allmost totally devoid of power this was extremely unlikely,knowing this Johnson didnt train for the fight ,it was a bore Johnson grinned and postured and OBrien ran,luck had nothing to do with it.If a better contender than Jim Johnson had ben in there with Jack that night in paris Johnson would probably have lost his title ,a Gun Boat Smith or a Langford would likely have beaten him on his showing that night ,but then he would probably have been in better shape against a more dangerous opponent.Johnson ,after the Flynn fight was going down hill his dissolute lifestyle and troubles with the law affected his focus, some of his problems ,you could say he brought on himself,,he could have kept in shape ,he could have and should have fought the black challengers as |Champion,though he did beat quite a few when he was a challenger,something the white Champions beforehim largely managed to avoid doing.Johnson wasnt prepared to risk his crown against the best Black men ,in that he followed a well established precedent ,you can say as a Black man he had a moral obligation to aid ,and support his fellow "brothers",but moral s werent Johnsons strong point,Jack Johnson didnt fight for Black equality ,he fought for Jack Johnson,In 12 Years ,and 25 defences Joe Louis fought 2 black challengers ,one was a light heavyweight ,blind in 1 eye,the other ,an old walcott was so lightly regarded the fight was first promoted as an exhibition,I dont hear anyone crying about that,and dont tell me there werent better challengers among the black fighters than Harry Thomas ,Jack Roper,Gus Dorazio etc,Why not just say I dont rate Jack Johnson ,he is very overated ,his reign stinks he fought nobody and let it go at that,instead of making tortous threads to denigrate the man,you can research papers that will report Jeffries couldnt get his face out of the way of a ljab ,and only won his fight by durability and strength but you wont convert the guys that think James J was the nearest thing to Superman so why try?I think some one like Ali would have crucified Jeffries,but I have no interest or desire in trying to persuade Jeffries fan s round to my opinion.
Interesting post but try to use paragraphs or no one will read it (I wasnt going to bother)
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Old 10-10-2007, 06:09 AM   #26
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Default Re: Jack Johsnon news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Anyone who thinks Johnson would turn down a $100,000 payday regardless of the challenger then they are in cloud cucko land.
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Old 10-10-2007, 06:21 AM   #27
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Interesting post but try to use paragraphs or no one will read it (I wasnt going to bother)
Whats a paragraph? Power puncher? Perhaps I should have prepared better? Probably my points arent precise or persuasive enough.Personally I prefer to plod along pretending I put up good posts. My plebian phraseology,has put a partial perversion on my perspective,please permit me to proffer my profound apologies to your proffered pedantic post.


Only joking ,I write as I talk in bursts,its a common fault of mine. PPPPPP !
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Old 10-10-2007, 06:26 AM   #28
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Default Re: Jack Johnson news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Whats a paragraph? Power puncher? Perhaps I should have prepared better? Probably my points arent precise or persuasive enough.Personally I prefer to plod along pretending I put up good posts. My plebian phraseology,has put a partial perversion on my perspective,please permit me to proffer my profound apologies to your proffered pedantic post.


Only joking ,I write as I talk in bursts,its a common fault of mine. PPPPPP !
I'll be happy to help McVey out. He basically agrees with what I have been saying about Jack Johnson being over rated, lucky to win some fights, and avoiding the best competition despite some big time purse offers as champion. We agree here.

Where we might disagree is how much Johnson's wins over 156 pound Langford, a very in-experienced Jeanette, or a teenaged and green McVey really mean. Jeanette despite sporting a record below, at, or slightly above .500 was nearly even with Johnson when the two mixed it.


Then he says Joe Louis never faced many black contenders, and Ali whips Jeffries.
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Old 10-10-2007, 06:36 AM   #29
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Default Re: Jack Johsnon news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Anyone who thinks Johnson would turn down a $100,000 payday regardless of the challenger then they are in cloud cucko land.
Johnson loved money. He once blew $20,000 in one night, which was an obscene amount of money in those days. If you read the stuff I post Power Puncher, you will note what I say is pretty much spot on, and backed by news paper accounts. To deny multiple news paper accounts to suit an agenda seems like your reading from cloud cuckoo. Either that or the facts, and truths simply do not coenciding with your rooting interests. I think itís the later as most of your posts are good.

The bottom line is Johnson had a real chance to fatten his bank accounts. All he had to do was take one of many offers to fight McVey, Jeanette, or Langford as champion. Histroy shows us he did not. Case closed.
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Old 10-10-2007, 07:01 AM   #30
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Default Re: Jack Johsnon news reads. Battling Jim, MCvey, Jeanette, and Langford!

Johnsons reign as champion was dire but for the record I can find multiple listings of the Jim Johnson fight as a ten rounder prior to the contest and only one listing it as a twenty-rounder. I feel it is safe to assume it was a ten so JJ stayed the distance. As to the validity of the decision i cannot say except to point out that some reports were derisory of the effords of both men and felt they were "stalling",
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