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Old 10-10-2007, 11:32 PM   #1
quintonjacksonfan
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Default What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

Is it possible for any fighter to ever pass SRR at P4P considering a full career now is 50 fights? Is he locked in at that spot for good
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Old 10-10-2007, 11:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

I think if Mayweather beats Hatton, Mosley, Cotto, Williams, De La Hoya in a rematch and Winky then moves up and beats Pavlik (or even better, Calzaghe) then he would be my number #1. Now back to reality, I doubt that would ever happen its just to much to ask, especially beating the middleweight champion.
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Old 10-11-2007, 12:50 AM   #3
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

No.

But given the structure of boxing today, and the magnitude of Rays accomplishments, it'd be mighty difficult.

I think a career would need to span about 20 years to even be comparable.

Mayweather has been fighting for 11, theoretically he's in the best position to do so, but he'd need to win titles up to 160lbs, and fight a lot more frequently than he is now.
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Old 10-11-2007, 02:04 AM   #4
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad Spencer
Henry Armstrong.
I think the initial intent of this thread, was to ask weather a fighter of today could ever acheive a legacy great enough to surpass that of Sugar Ray Robinson's.

To some degree however, I have to agree with Thad Spencer that Henry Armstrong's career ( although in the past ), could very well be worthy of comparison.

Henry Armstrong accumulated 180 fights in just a 14 year period. Robinson finished with 200 bouts in 25 years. Technically, Armstrong was the more frequent fighter, given the shorter duration of time that he was active. In addition, he fought in about 22 world title fights in only two years, and won maybe 20 of them. Also, he has one of the highest records for averaging most punches per round, reflecting that his work rate was remarkable.

I don't personally rate Armstrong above Robinson in terms of all time great status, but let's just say that he comes close. As far as fighters of today are concerned, I think that it would take an exceptional talent to surpass either of these two men.
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Old 10-11-2007, 05:16 AM   #5
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

If the 15 round limit is abolished for good, then SRR is indeed locked in at the top spot for good.

Should RJJ had unified the HW title, then retired undefeated, a real debate might have emerged over the issue, but the substance abuse question would have tainted the issue.

Robby was never stopped by an opponent in his amateur and professional career, and never stopped at all within the 12 round distance. Harry Greb was stopped by an opponent once in 299 bouts, while Britton did not sustain a stoppage loss in his final 348 matches. Mickey Walker came up from the WW championship to batter a peak Jack Sharkey in getting robbed of the NYSAC World HW Title with a dubious draw. Yet Walker was clearly outpointed for the MW Championship by a noticably past-peak Greb. Could SRL have decisioned heavyweights the size and calibre of Bearcat Wright and Paulino Uzcudun?

159 pound Stan Ketchel flattened and seriously stunned 209 pound Jack Johnson. Could Hagler have done the same thing to Holmes that Shavers did? (Just putting what Ketchel did in perspective.)

Mike Spinks was in position to be a candidate, if he had taken out Tyson the way he did ****ey, and retired undefeated.

Keep in mind that a post peak Robby wasn't merely squeaking by Joey Maxim, he was pitching a near shutout on the scorecards going into round 14. All they needed to do was prop him up in a corner with his arms raised to protect his face and body for six more minutes, and folks would have been asking if he could take the then reigning heavyweight champion, former Maxim victim Walcott.

Armstrong won his first title at 126, and soon defended the WW championship against a challenger he would later draw against for the MW honors. PBF started at 130. Could he win the undisputed LHW crown?

How about this? PBF stands 5'8" and has the same reach as Toney. Can he do as well against heavyweights? More food for thought.
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Old 10-11-2007, 06:37 AM   #6
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintonjacksonfan
Is it possible for any fighter to ever pass SRR at P4P considering a full career now is 50 fights? Is he locked in at that spot for good

A three weight world champ in the days before bridging divisions could have done it.

Say, Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight champ.

Oh, wait...
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Old 10-11-2007, 07:37 AM   #7
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat_Lowe
I think if Mayweather beats Hatton, Mosley, Cotto, Williams, De La Hoya in a rematch and Winky then moves up and beats Pavlik (or even better, Calzaghe) then he would be my number #1. Now back to reality, I doubt that would ever happen its just to much to ask, especially beating the middleweight champion.
That ought to cover it!
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Old 10-11-2007, 08:26 AM   #8
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
A three weight world champ in the days before bridging divisions could have done it.

Say, Featherweight, Lightweight and Welterweight champ.

Oh, wait...
If Hank had been awarded the decision for the MW title in his rematch over Garcia, would you have definitely leapfrogged him over SRR, despite Armstrong's declaration after boxing Robby that he never could have beaten Ray on his best day?
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Old 10-11-2007, 08:37 AM   #9
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
If Hank had been awarded the decision for the MW title in his rematch over Garcia, would you have definitely leapfrogged him over SRR, despite Armstrong's declaration after boxing Robby that he never could have beaten Ray on his best day?
Garcia was only an alphabet **** champion, it would of left a bitter taste in the mouth if Armstrong had won the championship like that. Not like now when I laugh when a Leonard or Hearns claim six/seven championships, but Armstrong was that bit more special, he did not need watering down.

As for someone topping Robinson, I would say now that a fighter would have to prove himself the best fighter in a division probably with in a year of being a pro, then he would need to put a run together over the next 15/20 years of beating at least 40 top fighters of his era, just to create a debate as to weather Robinson has a peer.
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Old 10-11-2007, 08:44 AM   #10
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duodenum
If Hank had been awarded the decision for the MW title in his rematch over Garcia, would you have definitely leapfrogged him over SRR, despite Armstrong's declaration after boxing Robby that he never could have beaten Ray on his best day?

I think the case for Armstrong being above SRR is already reasonable. If he'd lifted the MW title he'd be my #1 for sure.
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Old 10-11-2007, 08:49 AM   #11
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBooze
Garcia was only an alphabet **** champion, it would of left a bitter taste in the mouth if Armstrong had won the championship like that. Not like now when I laugh when a Leonard or Hearns claim six/seven championships, but Armstrong was that bit more special, he did not need watering down.

As for someone topping Robinson, I would say now that a fighter would have to prove himself the best fighter in a division probably with in a year of being a pro, then he would need to put a run together over the next 15/20 years of beating at least 40 top fighters of his era, just to create a debate as to weather Robinson has a peer.
Guy turns pro at MW. Wins the title within 20 fights. Steps up and wins the SMW title. Steps up and wins LHW title. Steps up and wins CW title, now he's notabley smaller than the guys he's taking on.

Steps up and wins HW title. Makes nine defences. Loses the title. Wins it back. Wins back the CW title v the p4p no.2. Wins back the HW title. Makes four defences. Retires.
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Old 10-11-2007, 08:58 AM   #12
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

Roberto Duran coming back tomorrow and winning the HW title oughtta do it.
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Old 10-11-2007, 09:03 AM   #13
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

If Pac-Man can beat Marquez, Guzman, Soto, Valero, Katsidis, Diaz, Diaz, Diaz, Lineris, and Vasquez, I'd have to rate him darn close to Sugar Ray.
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Old 10-11-2007, 09:11 AM   #14
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGrain
Guy turns pro at MW. Wins the title within 20 fights. Steps up and wins the SMW title. Steps up and wins LHW title. Steps up and wins CW title, now he's notabley smaller than the guys he's taking on.

Steps up and wins HW title. Makes nine defences. Loses the title. Wins it back. Wins back the CW title v the p4p no.2. Wins back the HW title. Makes four defences. Retires.
Agree but, titles do not matter so much as long as he is fighting the best.
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Old 10-11-2007, 09:15 AM   #15
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

The problem here is your looking at quantity of fights and divisions over the quality of fighters in those divisions.

Yes a fighter today could become P4P no1 is hes good enough. Mayweather is not.

But what if Mayweather was in the following parallel universe

1. Mayweather in late 1998 instead of getting a shot at Hernandez gets a shot at Hamed at 126 and wins despite been drained at the weight.
2. He jumps to 130 in his next fight to beat linear champ Hernandez. Meanwhile he is accused of ducking MAB and Morales, who jump to 126 winning belts there and have their superfight 2years earlier. MAB also beats Hamed
3. Mayweather unifys with P4P Corrales (who in this reality hadn't dropped his WBA belt). Mayweather then beats Morales and MAB emphatically. He then fights Cassamoya and Freitas for further unification. Mayweather is being celebrated as the greatest feather/super feather of all time
4. Mayweather goes up and beat Castillo twice at lightweight. Dorin rightfully gets the decision over and Spadafora (they drew Dorin was robbed) and Mayweather beats him easily to unify all 3 belts. Meanwhile Marquez and Pacman prove to be the best 2 fighters at 130. Mayweather dominates them both
5. In his first fight at 140 in 2005 he beats linear champion Tyszu coming off a 2 year off. Meanwhile Hatton beats Gatti in a war to win the WBC title, he adds the WBA belt against Maussa and fights Ndou who would take Mayweathers vacant IBF belt.
6. Mayweather jumps straight to Welterweight to face undisputed champ Judah who hasn't faced Baldomir who he beats
7. Delahoya decides to face WBA champ Simms before he faces Mayweather, Delahoya now has WBA and WBC belts, which is the prequisit for lineal status. He is also said to be beack to near his best. Mayweather becomes a 6 division lineal champion by beating Delahoya who would weigh 20lbs more on fight night
8. Spinks rightfully gets the decision against Jermaine Taylor. Mayweather beats Spinks to become middleweight champion. He then defends against ATG Felix Trinidad and Winky Wright
9. He drops back down to 147 to beat thw Welterweight champions in Hatton, Cotto,

In this universe Mayweather has become Linear Champion in 7 divisions. Hes become the no1 in more divisions than Henry Armstrong.

Hes beaten ATGs: Hamed, MAB, Morales, Marquez, Pacman, Corrales, Castillo, Tyszu, Judah, Delahoya, Spinks, Trinidad, Winky Wright, Hatton and Cotto.

He has retired undefeated.
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