Good performance by Haye last night, but.... - Page 2

NO MAS · 04-04-2010, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stickandmove

Wlad will go. But Vitali will take it unless he's shot due to age

That's a fair point... Haye will have to be punch perfect to take them both out, it is a tough ask for him, but definatly not beyond him IMO...

achillesthegreat · 04-04-2010, 07:39 AM

His stamina has gone back to what it was pre Thompson. He must not train hard enough at heavyweight. He needs to get with Roach because his work is sloppy as fuck. Vitali will put him 6 foot deep. He needs to be sharper than that to get in and out on Wlad.

I was entertained from a violence perspective but technically terrible.

No Fear · 04-04-2010, 08:12 AM

Haye has shown his versatility in two HW title fights and a mixture of his in and out style against Valuev and all action brawling against Ruiz would probably be the order of the day against either Klitschko.

s23041983 · 04-04-2010, 07:56 PM

the thing is... hayes last fights where all come-forward fighters who haye could just tee off at will against (mormek, maccrinelli, barratt, valuev, ruiz)... how is he gonna fight a guy who doesnt come forward so much?

KobeIsGod · 04-05-2010, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s23041983

the thing is... hayes last fights where all come-forward fighters who haye could just tee off at will against (mormek, maccrinelli, barratt, valuev, ruiz)... how is he gonna fight a guy who doesnt come forward so much?

I think this fight comes to controlling distance and tempo. You can't let Wlad control the pace of the fight and get comfortable. Wlad will come forward and pressure haye but keep distance all the while using that extended left to paw, move, measure, jab and blind haye. It's seriously a huge obstacle for anyone. Wlad will want to move Haye in a position to unleash his right hand or left hook. Seriously, he could just use that left to bust up Haye for 6 rounds or so leading to a stoppage. Lennox did a lot of this but not as much and I don't think he was as versatile with it as wlad is.

I think if you're gonna beat wladimir, you must pressure contstantly and be prepared to throw a lot of punches. It has to be physical in order to wear him down to the point where he is more stationary. You need to have a top notch defense and be willing to walk through a lot of punishment.

People point to the Sam Peter fight when wlad was dropped 3x but u have to rememeber, peter had to walk through hellacious rights and left hooks to get in position to land his shots. Moreover, I think Wlad has improved his stamina, footwork and confidence since.

Therefore, I just don't see Haye's style presenting major problems for Wladimir. Haye is elusive and defensive so wlad will probaly have trouble early measuring Haye with his left. Haye might jump in with a big lead at some points but he'd go right back on his horse. Sure Haye can land a huge counter punch and try to follow up and finish Wlad, but it's gonna be an uphill battle as long as he's in there.

Prescott_Fan · 04-05-2010, 05:12 AM

Wlad's defensive strategy of sticking out an arm whilst leaning back with his chin in the air praying he doesn't get hit is really not a good tactic to use against someone with Haye's speed and power. Haye has long arms for his height too and would be able to whip his right hand over the top as Wlad pulls the jab back. Chambers managed it a few times early on but he lacks the snap and power of Haye. It's by no means an easy task, but i don't see Wlad taking Haye's power and i do see Haye having the tools to get through with power shots.

KCD · 04-05-2010, 05:25 AM

Haye fought well in spurts in the Ruiz fight.

But lets not forget for an alleged quick defensive fighter he gets hit an awful lot.

Ruiz like Barrett was backing Haye up at times to the ropes with their jab, and at times Haye was moving straight back. This he cant afford to do with Wlad.

Plus alot of people hre talk as though Wlad wont be fighting back, ive heard alot of 'IF' Haye lands Wlad will be gone. Butfrom a technical aspect, Wlad will be the one to get off first.

As a Wlad fan, i say bring the fight on. Because apart from the first knockdown (which was excellent) i didnt see an awful lot from Haye which will trouble Wlad.

Oh and as a side note i think itali is the "easier" fight, if there is one for Haye.

threethirteen · 04-05-2010, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Lennox did a lot of this but not as much and I don't think he was as versatile with it as wlad is.

And this is why I can't stand the brothers' fans. Get a grip.

John18 · 04-05-2010, 07:04 AM

Wlad is extremely versatile with his jab.

sometimes he throws it 13 times before considering a right hand, other times he throws it 19 times.

rusticraver · 04-05-2010, 08:12 AM

This is starting to piss me off now.

Am i the only person who doesn't think the Klitchkos are that good?

threethirteen · 04-05-2010, 08:22 AM

rusticraver, no you aren't. the quality of their opposition flatters them significantly. They are very good, but nothing special. Vitali's reputation comes from a brave loss to Lewis. A past-prime Lewis who was under-trained and was starting to dictate the fight by the middle rounds and the stoppage.

Other than that, Vitali's resume is mediocre. He's fought the best out there, but they're a dreadful bunch. Peter's the best name on his list as a champion, but Peter's best win was over an old, fat Toney. Sanders is a decent name, but he was a semi-retired golfer when he beat Wlad.

Wlad has the better record: Byrd, Brock, Chagaev, Ibragimov - but that says it all in itself.

for me, the perception of quality is because they've controlled and dominated in their winning performances to such a large extent, that some credit needs to be given for how they use their natural abilities.

Beating Vitali and Wlad is actually very simple in terms of a gameplan, but it requires peak fitness and discipline. You need to bob and weave to negate the jab somewhat, you need to use lateral movement to stop them from setting their feet and you need to make them both work to create openings for your own offence.

I think Haye has the skills, the speed and the style to bother Wlad, but I think his fitness will let him down possibly. Vitali is a tougher fight because he's prepared to stand with you on occasion.

But, if you can get into mid-range, they become a lot less effective.

rusticraver · 04-05-2010, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by threethirteen

rusticraver, no you aren't. the quality of their opposition flatters them significantly. They are very good, but nothing special. Vitali's reputation comes from a brave loss to Lewis. A past-prime Lewis who was under-trained and was starting to dictate the fight by the middle rounds and the stoppage.

Other than that, Vitali's resume is mediocre. He's fought the best out there, but they're a dreadful bunch. Peter's the best name on his list as a champion, but Peter's best win was over an old, fat Toney. Sanders is a decent name, but he was a semi-retired golfer when he beat Wlad.

Wlad has the better record: Byrd, Brock, Chagaev, Ibragimov - but that says it all in itself.

for me, the perception of quality is because they've controlled and dominated in their winning performances to such a large extent, that some credit needs to be given for how they use their natural abilities.

Beating Vitali and Wlad is actually very simple in terms of a gameplan, but it requires peak fitness and discipline. You need to bob and weave to negate the jab somewhat, you need to use lateral movement to stop them from setting their feet and you need to make them both work to create openings for your own offence.

I think Haye has the skills, the speed and the style to bother Wlad, but I think his fitness will let him down possibly. Vitali is a tougher fight because he's prepared to stand with you on occasion.

But, if you can get into mid-range, they become a lot less effective.

I agree with a lot of what you say, i won't knock their comp because there hasn't been much else out there. I respect what they have achieved but i watch them fight and i'm rarely impressed... its not the "boring fights" aspect either.

All it takes it someone who wants to take the risk and a good game plan with lots of lateral movement as you say

Will · 04-05-2010, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rusticraver

I agree with a lot of what you say, i won't knock their comp because there hasn't been much else out there. I respect what they have achieved but i watch them fight and i'm rarely impressed... its not the "boring fights" aspect either.

All it takes it someone who wants to take the risk and a good game plan with lots of lateral movement as you say

Wlad is only effective (and he is very effective) at range. Once you get the fight mid-range or produce an infight he goes to being extremely ineffective. Hay needs to do plenty of work getting inside that Jab and then he'll be able to scare the shit outta Wlad.

You can guarentee Wlad won't have liked what he saw against Ruiz. Apart from anything Haye did take a few decent shots from Ruiz and didn't even wobble.

Dan684 · 04-05-2010, 12:35 PM

Watching the fight the other night left my with no doubt that Haye could probably beat Vitali however if he fights Wlad this year or within the short future, Haye will be flattened.

If Ruiz can beat Haye to the jab time and time again, and can hit him with shots like he did on Saturday then Wlad will knock him out.

Jab, jab, jab, jab right hand. Haye will eat the jab all night. He wont get close to unload because as soon as he does, Wladimir will just grab him. He's not stupid, he knows by now (at least he should do) that Haye has carried decent power up to HW, so he won't get drawn in at all. Haye will get sparked by a right hand, after getting tired and sloppy. I like Booth and I like the way they have gone about their business so far however Haye could do with bringing in a trainer a little more experienced to help for the Wlad fight. Haye isn't nearly as fit as he should be and looks too big in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong Haye could probably spark Wlad out IF he gets his shots off, but there-in lies the problem....... Nobody gets there shots off at Wlad nowadays and I can't see anything from Haye to suggest he'd manage any different.

JonOli · 04-05-2010, 12:57 PM

My view remains about the same, but believe he now has the power to trouble Wlad. Wlad and VIt are clearly not going to stand their getting hit like Ruiz though

I give him about a 25% chance of a win, I fear they both will probably stop Haye though.

It was quite alarming how Haye suddenly went very sloppy, I guess that must be down to fatigue - if he did that against either of the Klits, it's lights out.

Vitali throws a huge volume of punches for a HW, and has a very good chin, so I'm not sure how Haye would plan to win that one - I don't think Haye can match Vits output, I guess acuracy would be the key, it's going to be hard to outpoint him though or knock him down (even this version of Vit).

04-04-2010, 07:39 AM	#17
achillesthegreat FORTUNE FAVOURS THE BRAVE East Side VIP Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,193 vCash: 1000	Re: Good performance by Haye last night, but.... His stamina has gone back to what it was pre Thompson. He must not train hard enough at heavyweight. He needs to get with Roach because his work is sloppy as fuck. Vitali will put him 6 foot deep. He needs to be sharper than that to get in and out on Wlad. I was entertained from a violence perspective but technically terrible.
Top

04-04-2010, 08:12 AM	#18
No Fear Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,077 vCash: 1000	Re: Good performance by Haye last night, but.... Haye has shown his versatility in two HW title fights and a mixture of his in and out style against Valuev and all action brawling against Ruiz would probably be the order of the day against either Klitschko.
Top

04-04-2010, 07:56 PM	#19
s23041983 Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Liverpool Posts: 4,164 vCash: 75	Re: Good performance by Haye last night, but.... the thing is... hayes last fights where all come-forward fighters who haye could just tee off at will against (mormek, maccrinelli, barratt, valuev, ruiz)... how is he gonna fight a guy who doesnt come forward so much?
Top

04-05-2010, 05:12 AM	#21
Prescott_Fan Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 784 vCash: 1000	Re: Good performance by Haye last night, but.... Wlad's defensive strategy of sticking out an arm whilst leaning back with his chin in the air praying he doesn't get hit is really not a good tactic to use against someone with Haye's speed and power. Haye has long arms for his height too and would be able to whip his right hand over the top as Wlad pulls the jab back. Chambers managed it a few times early on but he lacks the snap and power of Haye. It's by no means an easy task, but i don't see Wlad taking Haye's power and i do see Haye having the tools to get through with power shots.
Top

04-05-2010, 05:25 AM	#22
KCD All aboard. East Side Guru Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Westhoughton, Lancashire Posts: 5,705 vCash: 1000	Re: Good performance by Haye last night, but.... Haye fought well in spurts in the Ruiz fight. But lets not forget for an alleged quick defensive fighter he gets hit an awful lot. Ruiz like Barrett was backing Haye up at times to the ropes with their jab, and at times Haye was moving straight back. This he cant afford to do with Wlad. Plus alot of people hre talk as though Wlad wont be fighting back, ive heard alot of 'IF' Haye lands Wlad will be gone. Butfrom a technical aspect, Wlad will be the one to get off first. As a Wlad fan, i say bring the fight on. Because apart from the first knockdown (which was excellent) i didnt see an awful lot from Haye which will trouble Wlad. Oh and as a side note i think itali is the "easier" fight, if there is one for Haye.
Top

04-05-2010, 07:04 AM	#24
John18 Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Lanarkshire Posts: 741 vCash: 1000	Re: Good performance by Haye last night, but.... Wlad is extremely versatile with his jab. sometimes he throws it 13 times before considering a right hand, other times he throws it 19 times.
Top

04-05-2010, 08:12 AM	#25
rusticraver Contender ESB Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: London Posts: 1,294 vCash: 1000	Re: Good performance by Haye last night, but.... This is starting to piss me off now. Am i the only person who doesn't think the Klitchkos are that good?
Top

04-05-2010, 08:22 AM	#26
threethirteen Belt holder ESB Addict Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,211 vCash: 1000	Re: Good performance by Haye last night, but.... rusticraver, no you aren't. the quality of their opposition flatters them significantly. They are very good, but nothing special. Vitali's reputation comes from a brave loss to Lewis. A past-prime Lewis who was under-trained and was starting to dictate the fight by the middle rounds and the stoppage. Other than that, Vitali's resume is mediocre. He's fought the best out there, but they're a dreadful bunch. Peter's the best name on his list as a champion, but Peter's best win was over an old, fat Toney. Sanders is a decent name, but he was a semi-retired golfer when he beat Wlad. Wlad has the better record: Byrd, Brock, Chagaev, Ibragimov - but that says it all in itself. for me, the perception of quality is because they've controlled and dominated in their winning performances to such a large extent, that some credit needs to be given for how they use their natural abilities. Beating Vitali and Wlad is actually very simple in terms of a gameplan, but it requires peak fitness and discipline. You need to bob and weave to negate the jab somewhat, you need to use lateral movement to stop them from setting their feet and you need to make them both work to create openings for your own offence. I think Haye has the skills, the speed and the style to bother Wlad, but I think his fitness will let him down possibly. Vitali is a tougher fight because he's prepared to stand with you on occasion. But, if you can get into mid-range, they become a lot less effective.
Top

04-05-2010, 12:35 PM	#29
Dan684 Dave's Stepdad East Side VIP Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Manchester Posts: 13,908 vCash: 75	Re: Good performance by Haye last night, but.... Watching the fight the other night left my with no doubt that Haye could probably beat Vitali however if he fights Wlad this year or within the short future, Haye will be flattened. If Ruiz can beat Haye to the jab time and time again, and can hit him with shots like he did on Saturday then Wlad will knock him out. Jab, jab, jab, jab right hand. Haye will eat the jab all night. He wont get close to unload because as soon as he does, Wladimir will just grab him. He's not stupid, he knows by now (at least he should do) that Haye has carried decent power up to HW, so he won't get drawn in at all. Haye will get sparked by a right hand, after getting tired and sloppy. I like Booth and I like the way they have gone about their business so far however Haye could do with bringing in a trainer a little more experienced to help for the Wlad fight. Haye isn't nearly as fit as he should be and looks too big in my opinion. Don't get me wrong Haye could probably spark Wlad out IF he gets his shots off, but there-in lies the problem....... Nobody gets there shots off at Wlad nowadays and I can't see anything from Haye to suggest he'd manage any different.
Top

04-05-2010, 12:57 PM	#30
JonOli Champion East Side Guru Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 9,456 vCash: 75	Re: Good performance by Haye last night, but.... My view remains about the same, but believe he now has the power to trouble Wlad. Wlad and VIt are clearly not going to stand their getting hit like Ruiz though I give him about a 25% chance of a win, I fear they both will probably stop Haye though. It was quite alarming how Haye suddenly went very sloppy, I guess that must be down to fatigue - if he did that against either of the Klits, it's lights out. Vitali throws a huge volume of punches for a HW, and has a very good chin, so I'm not sure how Haye would plan to win that one - I don't think Haye can match Vits output, I guess acuracy would be the key, it's going to be hard to outpoint him though or knock him down (even this version of Vit).
Top