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Old 04-07-2010, 02:29 PM   #61
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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Originally Posted by Haye View Post
It gets overcomplicated by silly definitions.

You want a definiton of 'P4P'? You have one right there.

It cant usually apply to HW's because a huge HW being ranked P4P is a contradiction in terms.
No it isn't. Not if the huge HW is incredibly skilled, to the point where if you shrunk him down with a mad scientist's shrink ray, he would still be as effective against top fighters of comparable weight.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:30 PM   #62
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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Originally Posted by Popkins View Post
I don't know why people are jumping on this post as the correct definition of pound-for-pound. It isn't. The part highlighted in red is laughably ludicrous, in spite of it being widely believed. Think about it FFS - if you have to decide who is better between Vitali Klitschko and Ivan Calderon, then you either have to imagine a 6ft 7in, 17st Calderon, or a 5ft 2in, 8st Vitali? Absurd, impossible, pointless. Pound-for-pound means who is the greatest for their size, in comparison to those they compete against, ie Floyd Mayweather is better at his weight than Carl Froch is at his weight, so he ranks higher. It has nothing to do with imagining what a 12st Floyd would be like. If you change a fighter's physical dimensions, you would change him completely as a fighter, so it doesn't work and can't work. An 8st Vit Klit could not fight like Vit Klit actually does. A 6ft 7in Ivan Calderon could not fight like Calderon actually does. Think about it.
Agree.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:32 PM   #63
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

HW can be P4P.

Ali would have been P4P #1 in 66' 67'
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:33 PM   #64
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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Originally Posted by IntentionalButt View Post
No it isn't. Not if the huge HW is incredibly skilled, to the point where if you shrunk him down with a mad scientist's shrink ray, he would still be as effective against top fighters of comparable weight.
What's all this 'shrinking down' stuff?

We'll ignore the fact that, if you shrunk Vitali Klitschko down to welterweight/height, he physically wouldn't be able to stand up because his brain couldn't cope.

What exactly are you imagining? Does the WW Vitali have the same speed in your mind as the HW one (ie very very slow at WW)? Does he have the same punching power (ie. by far the hardest hitting WW in history)?
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:36 PM   #65
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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What's all this 'shrinking down' stuff?

We'll ignore the fact that, if you shrunk Vitali Klitschko down to welterweight/height, he physically wouldn't be able to stand up because his brain couldn't cope.

What exactly are you imagining? Does the WW Vitali have the same speed in your mind as the HW one (ie very very slow at WW)? Does he have the same punching power (ie. by far the hardest hitting WW in history)?
You're taking it too literall- actually, just forget it.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:38 PM   #66
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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Originally Posted by IntentionalButt View Post
You're taking it too literall- actually, just forget it.
But a lot of people do seem to think that P4P involves imagining fighters reduced to the same size.

Fair enough if you didn't mean it literally, maybe someone that does can answer the question.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:45 PM   #67
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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But a lot of people do seem to think that P4P involves imagining fighters reduced to the same size.

Fair enough if you didn't mean it literally, maybe someone that does can answer the question.
I think the most succinct way to put it is "Pound for pound = 'in proportion' (to size)..."

So if you are saying that Jermain Taylor is a better p4p fighter than Carlos Baldomir, it has nothing to do with whether Baldomir could jump up in weight class (or have Jermain drain down) and beat Taylor straight up. They are each judged relative to their own weight class. You are saying that in proportion to his size, stacked head-to-head against other middleweights, Taylor is the better fighter than Baldomir in proportion to his size, stacked head-to-head against other welterweights.

Of course the weight-jumping does confuse the issue a bit, particularly on the point of "at what weight do you judge the jumper?"; ie, when comparing Wlad Klitschko to Manny Pacquiao using the above formula for Taylor-Baldomir, we're obviously saying that in proportion to his size, stacked head-to-head against other heavyweights, Wlad is a ____ (better/worse...whatever your opinion) fighter than Manny Pacquiao in proportion to his size, stacked head-to-head against other ???????.

??????, IMO, should be the most recently campaigned in division. So the sentence would be completed with the word "welterweight".

If you think Wlad stacks up against other HWs better than Pac stacks up against other WWs, then Wlad is the better p4p fighter.

The figurative idea of "shrinking" the bigger man or "blowing up" the smaller is basically just a mind's-eye tool to help people on the learning curve who can't make the mental leap of separating straight-up head to head comparisons with size-proportionate analysis. Obviously the tool itself can cause confusion if taken literally, so maybe it's best to just leave it off the table.
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:47 PM   #68
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

Ability/weight = p4p
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Old 04-07-2010, 02:58 PM   #69
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

People all have their own definitions of P4P. But glad to take in what people are saying. I learned my share haha
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:02 PM   #70
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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Originally Posted by IntentionalButt View Post
I think the most succinct way to put it is "Pound for pound = 'in proportion' (to size)..."

So if you are saying that Jermain Taylor is a better p4p fighter than Carlos Baldomir, it has nothing to do with whether Baldomir could jump up in weight class (or have Jermain drain down) and beat Taylor straight up. They are each judged relative to their own weight class. You are saying that in proportion to his size, stacked head-to-head against other middleweights, Taylor is the better fighter than Baldomir in proportion to his size, stacked head-to-head against other welterweights.

Of course the weight-jumping does confuse the issue a bit, particularly on the point of "at what weight do you judge the jumper?"; ie, when comparing Wlad Klitschko to Manny Pacquiao using the above formula for Taylor-Baldomir, we're obviously saying that in proportion to his size, stacked head-to-head against other heavyweights, Wlad is a ____ (better/worse...whatever your opinion) fighter than Manny Pacquiao in proportion to his size, stacked head-to-head against other ???????.

??????, IMO, should be the most recently campaigned in division. So the sentence would be completed with the word "welterweight".

If you think Wlad stacks up against other HWs better than Pac stacks up against other WWs, then Wlad is the better p4p fighter.

The figurative idea of "shrinking" the bigger man or "blowing up" the smaller is basically just a mind's-eye tool to help people on the learning curve who can't make the mental leap of separating straight-up head to head comparisons with size-proportionate analysis. Obviously the tool itself can cause confusion if taken literally, so maybe it's best to just leave it off the table.
Yes, I agree with pretty much most of that.

I would add that we also make subjective judgements about the strength or weakness of each weight division. So, with reference to your example, I could think that Wlad is a more dominant heavyweight than Pacquiao is welterweight, but still rank Pac higher P4P because I judge the division to be much stronger.

The problem is, as you say at the end, people do take the 'make everyone the same size' thing seriously and you end up with "a welterweight Klitschko would get battered by everyone because he would be really slow and wouldn't have any of the physical advantages he relies on" being presented as an argument.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:04 PM   #71
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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I thought 'P4P' was actually IN THE NAME meaning 'Pound for Pound' so you only fit in the rankings if you've dominated in multiple weight classes, yet I see names like:

David Haye
Froch
Direll
Edwin Valero
Timothy Bradley- How?? He's been at the same weight class his whole proffessional career.
AND MANY MORE.

Can people PLEASE get the meaning of P4P RIGHT. You aint P4P if you just beat one credible opponent in your division. God.

---Correct me if I'm wrong (y)

EDIT: Changed a few offensive wording as I had a rage moment. Sorry, no damage intended ;D
Haye is a two weight world champ.

Why wouldn't he fit your criteria?
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:05 PM   #72
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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The problem is, as you say at the end, people do take the 'make everyone the same size' thing seriously and you end up with "a welterweight Klitschko would get battered by everyone because he would be really slow and wouldn't have any of the physical advantages he relies on" being presented as an argument.
An open weight class can't be judged in P4P terms like all the other weight classes, which is why people present similar arguments to that.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:06 PM   #73
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
David Haye
Edwin Valero
---Correct me if I'm wrong (y)
Yes you wrong (at least partially) the above guys indeed
were dominating to some point at multiple weight classes.
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:08 PM   #74
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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An open weight class can't be judged in P4P terms like all the other weight classes, which is why people present similar arguments to that.
Sure it can. You just might need to have more considerations within the weight class than you would do in others (eg. you might have one heavyweight weighing 270lbs and another weighing 210lbs - they should be judged in a P4P sense and not just considered to be the same size).
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Old 04-07-2010, 03:16 PM   #75
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Default Re: Can People Seriously Get The 'P4P' Meaning Right!

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Originally Posted by Cobbler View Post
Sure it can. You just might need to have more considerations within the weight class than you would do in others (eg. you might have one heavyweight weighing 270lbs and another weighing 210lbs - they should be judged in a P4P sense and not just considered to be the same size).
You can't judge them accurately though.

You're supposed to take weight and size out of the equation. But if you have somebody like Wlad (so dependent on his jab, because of his height, reach and weight) and somebody like Vitali (defence is all based around leaning back out of range, because he's so tall), how can you then judge them P4P when their skillsets are based around being bigger than their opponents?
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