If you were Cleverly's promoter...would you put him in with Hopkins?

[avidlemon]

B-hop would take clev to school. all that will happen is b-hop will bring clev onto his right hand all night. Clev has not got enough experiance or ring savvy to neutralise hopkins right hand. And he isn't as active or quick handed as calzaghe, so won't be able to flurry punch his way to a win.
It owuld not be a defaet of pavlik propotions, and probably not as devastating, but does he really need this now?

[TFFP]

Originally Posted by avidlemon

B-hop would take clev to school. all that will happen is b-hop will bring clev onto his right hand all night. Clev has not got enough experiance or ring savvy to neutralise hopkins right hand. And he isn't as active or quick handed as calzaghe, so won't be able to flurry punch his way to a win.
It owuld not be a defaet of pavlik propotions, and probably not as devastating, but does he really need this now?

You're coming at it from the angle that Hopkins is still as good as he was against Calzaghe or Pavlik. His past 2 performances indicate he isn't. It's a year and a half since he fought Pavlik. That's a long time in boxing when you are a middle aged man. I know we tend to think he's a magician and he'll always pull it out but there always comes a point where that ends.

[avidlemon]

Originally Posted by TFFP

You're coming at it from the angle that Hopkins is still as good as he was against Calzaghe or Pavlik. His past 2 performances indicate he isn't. It's a year and a half since he fought Pavlik. That's a long time in boxing when you are a middle aged man. I know we tend to think he's a magician and he'll always pull it out but there always comes a point where that ends.

There can be no doubt that b-hop has declined, and obviously age is a major factor, and obviously, he may still not be able to pull it out of the hat. But this is also another compelling argument for clev to not fight him. I still think b-hop would have too much ring knowledge for clev, but let's say he is in decline and clev fights him, then he can't win either way, as it is a given that he will come up against the usual suspects saying, well he beat a shot b-hop etc.
There is no point in clev fighting him, and from a promotors point of view, who is going to pay to watch b-hop piss clev around for 12 rounds, pretending to get hit in the nuts.

[slip&counter]

I think we maybe getting ahead of ourselves, Hopkins did look like he had little left except dirty tactics, but remember he's looked shite before and then surprised us. I think movitation and styles has so much to do with how Bernard looks. Being a safety first fighter he never looks good against other safety first guys or slicksters with workrate. I hesitate to write off Hopkins against a fighter still wet behind the ears.

This maybe slightly early for Cleverly, I rate him, but IMO he's still far from the finished article with plenty more improvements to make and this would be a bad look for him. He doesn't yet have great combat effectiveness. He's got good workrate, but hasn't really learned how to avoid getting cought coming in or going out. His head is stationary and he comes with little lateral movement and admires his work at times, plus he has those T-rex arms allowing Hopkins to get off his short punches, come in with his clinches and work that long body of Cleverly which is a big target area.

I don't know really...I just see Hopkins turning him and resetting that crafty attack all night long, Bernard is also very strong physically, one of the big reason's he beat Pavlik...I thought height may play a little part but if i'm not mistaken Cleverly is tops 1" taller than Bernard and is a 'new' Light Heavy to boot.

I see exactly why people would put him in with Hopkins though based on his recent performances and even though i'm also of the view that father time has finally cought up with Hopkins, I just feel this would be too much risk for a young, almost part time fighter with his studies. I've seen this story over and over, way too many what ifs especially the way Bernard distroys fighters even in a seemingly close/comfortable fight, he hits you on the hips, with his head etc as well as giving you a possible 101 boxing lesson.

Of course this fight could never happen, Cleverly has no name, Hopkins is pension collecting and no network would be wet for it.

[UndisputedUK]

I'd have no problem putting him in with the WBO\WBA champs now. Pascal and Cloud could be a little too tasty at the moment . Shumenov in the UK would be a priority choice.

[HMSTempleGarden]

Originally Posted by Mazallan

To be honest I think ayone near world level will destroy Clev right now.

he does ship a couple of punches.

his mandatory for his EBU title is meant to be Erdei.

[TFFP]

There are always ways to discredit a victory, thats what some people do on here, think of new and ingenius ways to discredit people.

I see it the other way, it could be a no lose fight for Cleverly keeping in mind where he's coming from. He's not an established fighter that needs to put on a great performance, he's an up and comer, the expectations are different.

If he loses, but keeps it competetive he'll get some credit, which he SHOULD do because Hopkins can't fight at a high pace. Against Roy Jones he needed breaks and Roy threw 2 punches a round so I'm sure Cleverly can top that and put some real heat on Hop. I mean if Hopkins just old mans him out of it a lot of people would expect that anyway so its no big deal and a good experience for Clev.

Hopkins hasn't KO'd anybody for years, so there isn't a danger Clev gets sparked as he could against Cloud, or Pascal.

If he surprises people and wins, that can only be good for him. Hopkins is still a top 5 fighter regardless of what people claim and everybody has struggled with him.

[UndisputedUK]

Originally Posted by HMSTempleGarden

he does ship a couple of punches.

his mandatory for his EBU title is meant to be Erdei.

That's interesting. I'd take that fight. It means more than winning the WBA belt, as Erdei was "arguably" the man at 175'lbs and moved up to Cruiserweight. It could be a big draw in the UK or Germany.

[avidlemon]

Originally Posted by slip&counter

I think we maybe getting ahead of ourselves, Hopkins did look like he had little left except dirty tactics, but remember he's looked shite before and then surprised us. I think movitation and styles has so much to do with how Bernard looks. Being a safety first fighter he never looks good against other safety first guys or slicksters with workrate. I hesitate to write off Hopkins against a fighter still wet behind the ears.

This maybe slightly early for Cleverly, I rate him, but IMO he's still far from the finished article with plenty more improvements to make and this would be a bad look for him. He doesn't yet have great combat effectiveness. He's got good workrate, but hasn't really learned how to avoid getting cought coming in or going out. His head is stationary and he comes with little lateral movement and admires his work at times, plus he has those T-rex arms allowing Hopkins to get off his short punches, come in with his clinches and work that long body of Cleverly which is a big target area.

I don't know really...I just see Hopkins turning him and resetting that crafty attack all night long, Bernard is also very strong physically, one of the big reason's he beat Pavlik...I thought height may play a little part but if i'm not mistaken Cleverly is tops 1" taller than Bernard and is a 'new' Light Heavy to boot.

I see exactly why people would put him in with Hopkins though based on his recent performances and even though i'm also of the view that father time has finally cought up with Hopkins, I just feel this would be too much risk for a young, almost part time fighter with his studies. I've seen this story over and over, way too many what ifs especially the way Bernard distroys fighters even in a seemingly close fight, he hits you on the hips, with his head etc as well as giving you a possible 101 boxing lesson.

Of course this fight could never happen, Cleverly has no name, Hopkins is pension collecting and no network would be wet for it.

Gotta agree with most of this. If clev was a 30 plus fight man, fighting at this level, then this is a fight i would snap your hand off for, but right now, with the improvements clev needs to make in terms of head movement, and punch variety, this fight is all wrong, against a man who will spoil, but inevitably will hit and move and the inside, and then stay out of range to set clev up for a right hand.
Clev needs to hone his skills for a few more fights at euro level, and then take on a fringe level fighter. Then we will know.

[avidlemon]

Originally Posted by TFFP

There are always ways to discredit a victory, thats what some people do on here, think of new and ingenius ways to discredit people.

I see it the other way, it could be a no lose fight for Cleverly keeping in mind where he's coming from. He's not an established fighter that needs to put on a great performance, he's an up and comer, the expectations are different.

If he loses, but keeps it competetive he'll get some credit, which he SHOULD do because Hopkins can't fight at a high pace. Against Roy Jones he needed breaks and Roy threw 2 punches a round so I'm sure Cleverly can top that and put some real heat on Hop. I mean if Hopkins just old mans him out of it a lot of people would expect that anyway so its no big deal and a good experience for Clev.

Hopkins hasn't KO'd anybody for years, so there isn't a danger Clev gets sparked as he could against Cloud, or Pascal.

If he surprises people and wins, that can only be good for him. Hopkins is still a top 5 fighter regardless of what people claim and everybody has struggled with him.

I still think this won't be good enough for some people. Old man gets beat by up and comer. Or up and comer beat by old man. That's how it would be viewed, and why i would stay away from it. People said the same thing for khan v barrera.

[TFFP]

That was different. Barrera is 5'6, he was coming up in weight against a 5'10 fast guy. That's called handpicking a suited opponent.

Hopkins is the stronger man if anything at a comfortable weight for him now.

[cheekyvid]

no. cleverly gets hit far too much at brit level. and IF he managed to beat bhop or even do well, theres no coming back - he'd have to fight at that level consistently, which he isnt ready for

[avidlemon]

Originally Posted by TFFP

That was different. Barrera is 5'6, he was coming up in weight against a 5'10 fast guy. That's called handpicking a suited opponent.

Hopkins is the stronger man if anything at a comfortable weight for him now.

all i am pointing out about matching up and comers against guys like that, is that in the eyes of fans who demand fighters fight the best, you are setting guys like khan and clev up for a fall.
I am not actually saying barrera wasn't "prime" for khan to fight in terms of where he is at with his career, and i accept the guy was out of his confort zone in terms of weight.
And maybe b-hop is right for clev, i would just say he is more dangerous for him than he would be in maybe 3-5 fights.
Look at what people are saying about khan v mallingnagi. some guys can't win.

[slip&counter]

Originally Posted by avidlemon

Gotta agree with most of this. If clev was a 30 plus fight man, fighting at this level, then this is a fight i would snap your hand off for, but right now, with the improvements clev needs to make in terms of head movement, and punch variety, this fight is all wrong, against a man who will spoil, but inevitably will hit and move and the inside, and then stay out of range to set clev up for a right hand.
Clev needs to hone his skills for a few more fights at euro level, and then take on a fringe level fighter. Then we will know.

I think we're on the same page. The kid is still very green so he needs to be handled as such for the next few fights. Trying to match him against someone like Hopkins however aged he looks could be the kiss of death. He still displays a lot of bad habits and we don't want him to run into the ghost of a "Calzaghe" type where that heart just gets viciously ripped out...and 23 or not, it's career defining like poor Lacy.

I know it was a long time ago, but Taylor for example was never the same after those fights with a weight drained Hopkins even though he 'won'.

[ShaneTheSherrif]

I think he could take RJJ and it would be a huge name to have on his record. But Id rather Jones retired now as he should have done years ago