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Old 10-11-2007, 12:27 PM   #31
Drew101
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by dave krieg
The better question would be why is Sugar Ray Robinson so overrated?He spent most of his career avoiding the best black fighters at that time like Charley Burely but had no problem fighting unskilled slow weak italian fighters like Lamotta.Could you imagine if every so called great would of done the same thing?Could you imagine Ali.Foreman,Lewis,Hagler,Leonard,Holyfield ect ect ect fighting only white fighters and avoiding most blacks...Robinsons chin was suspect seeing the fact people like Lamotta was able to hurt him bad and floor him.Which based on logic would tell you people like G-McCllellan would of destroying him.So would Tommy Hearns and even a guy like Pavlik who is a murderous puncher and alot faster than the fighters Robinson fought.
Most of you seem naive..whatever you hear you believe.Any old fighter the media tells you was good you just accept as being the truth.Fighters like Sam Langford who only had a few fights recorded so I know none of you seen him fight much but because some really old boxing "expert" praises him then you will too.Learn to think on your own.Stop repeating the same nonsense you heard over and over and come up with something on your own.
Learn to communicate properly, stop being a racist, and make a point of actually watching Robinson fight...and we might take your viewpoints a little more seriously.

As it stands, your views on this site mean very little to the vast majority of posters on this forum.
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Old 10-11-2007, 02:06 PM   #32
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
If Hank had been awarded the decision for the MW title in his rematch over Garcia,
sorry to nitpick, but revisionist history pisses me off, such as the above

And that's all it was a title belt, Ive been through this before and the bout between (a welterweight) Garcia and Armstrong was not for the undisputed title, it was only over the 10 round distance and served more as a publicity stunt by Armstrong' manager at that time. The bout was only recognised as a world title in California, the 'real' middleweight champion at that time was Al Hostak
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Old 10-11-2007, 02:24 PM   #33
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by Nemesis
sorry to nitpick, but revisionist history pisses me off, such as the above

And that's all it was a title belt, Ive been through this before and the bout between (a welterweight) Garcia and Armstrong was not for the undisputed title, it was only over the 10 round distance and served more as a publicity stunt by Armstrong' manager at that time. The bout was only recognised as a world title in California, the 'real' middleweight champion at that time was Al Hostak
Ah, but Fred Apostoli had a legitimate claim to the middleweight title before he was dethroned Cerfino Garcia. The NYSAC had ceased to recognize Steele after he'd been stopped by Apostoli...and Apostoli cemented his claim by winning the NYSAC title against Young Corbett III. He was, for all intents and purposes, considered the champion when he faced Garcia, and that means that Garcia could be considered a legitimate champion when he faced Armstrong.
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Old 10-11-2007, 02:33 PM   #34
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

Someone with an old school mentality i.e. fight the best, fight often, fight in numerous weight classes etc

Todays game just doesn't allow for it but there are always a few who take a shot though it seems politics gets in the way and I don't think they are good enough anyway i.e. Taylor, DLH, PAcquiao etc These kind of fighters are fighting P4Ps, champs, mandatories none stop. However I don't think they are good enough.

In the last era and this era (RJJ and FMJ) they have not shown the same old school mentality. Great fighters but its true when they say they don't make em like they used to.
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Old 10-11-2007, 03:06 PM   #35
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by PowerPuncher
Why does Mayweather need to go from 130-160? When Armstrong only went from 126-147? Mayweathers already gone from a smallish 130 to 154 (against an ATG weighing). Armstrong was a natural lightweight (only fought 13times at the 126 limit) and won his welterweight title from a light hitting natural lightweight that was past his prime.
Because Hank very nearly went from 126 to a share of the 160 crown against an opponent he'd previously beaten (a bout readily available for viewing on-line), and he did go the distance with SRR. If his MW rematch with Garcia had also been for 15 rounds, who knows? (Concerning the fractured state of the MW title during the late 1930s, I'm sure he would have knocked out Apostoli as Garcia did. Overlin and Soose may have been too much to ask though.)

Duran did knock out potential FW IBHOFer (not that this means too much anymore) Ernesto Marcel, and went on to drop and decision probable IBHOFer Iran Barkley (who eventually retired Coetzee at HW). Duran was shorter and with less of a reach than PBF.
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Then we could go into how Robinson and Armstrong never faced Burley and the black murderers row crew and therefore never faced the best competition of their times.
I viewed tho two clips of Burley on youtube yesterday, and he doesn't appear to have been the sort of combination puncher SRR was. (However, if Robinson said he was "too pretty" to fight Burley, I can understand why. That doesn't mean he thought Burley would have prevailed, just that he didn't want his face messed up the way Turpin managed to do in their rematch.)

Of course he didn't want to face the murderers row crew of that era. Money was the name of the game, and such intra-racial bouts wouldn't be likely to draw, unless a flamboyant character like Archie Moore, or flashy stylist like Kid Gavilan were involved.

Plenty of white boxers didn't have an easy time of it either. LaMotta, Graham and Maxim all were kept waiting for title shots. Maxim had to box for nearly a dozen years and over 80 fights before getting Freddie Mills. Billy Graham had to wait for over a decade and record more than 90 wins before getting his first shot at Gavilan. LaMotta had to throw his match against Billy Fox to get Cerdan in the ring. Fritzie Zivic boxed for nine years, and had nearly 130 fights under his belt when he got his shot at Armstrong.

If you're looking for WW II era success stories, you can have Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery. (From their professional debuts to their first NYSAC LW Title tiff, they took four and five years respectively, and got to each other within 60 career fights.)
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Old 10-11-2007, 03:29 PM   #36
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by dave krieg
The better question would be why is Sugar Ray Robinson so overrated?He spent most of his career avoiding the best black fighters at that time like Charley Burely but had no problem fighting unskilled slow weak italian fighters like Lamotta.Could you imagine if every so called great would of done the same thing?Could you imagine Ali.Foreman,Lewis,Hagler,Leonard,Holyfield ect ect ect fighting only white fighters and avoiding most blacks...Robinsons chin was suspect seeing the fact people like Lamotta was able to hurt him bad and floor him.Which based on logic would tell you people like G-McCllellan would of destroying him.So would Tommy Hearns and even a guy like Pavlik who is a murderous puncher and alot faster than the fighters Robinson fought.
Most of you seem naive..whatever you hear you believe.Any old fighter the media tells you was good you just accept as being the truth.Fighters like Sam Langford who only had a few fights recorded so I know none of you seen him fight much but because some really old boxing "expert" praises him then you will too.Learn to think on your own.Stop repeating the same nonsense you heard over and over and come up with something on your own.
i despair,i really do.
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Old 10-11-2007, 03:41 PM   #37
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by achillesthegreat
Someone with an old school mentality i.e. fight the best, fight often, fight in numerous weight classes etc

Todays game just doesn't allow for it but there are always a few who take a shot though it seems politics gets in the way and I don't think they are good enough anyway i.e. Taylor, DLH, PAcquiao etc These kind of fighters are fighting P4Ps, champs, mandatories none stop. However I don't think they are good enough.

In the last era and this era (RJJ and FMJ) they have not shown the same old school mentality. Great fighters but its true when they say they don't make em like they used to.
And I was surfing channels a while back, and saw PBF being interviewed on ESPN. It was at the conclusion, and Mayweather told the interviewer that his aspiration was to be recognized as the best of all-time. If he was truly that concerned with his place in boxing history, then he did indeed need to be far more active than he has been, taking far many more chances with his record than a measly one, two or three championship fights per year. Hell, as the reigning LW Champion, Duran had nontitle bouts against DeJesus, Saoul Mamby, Ed Viruet, Adolfo Viruet, and Monroe Brooks.

Old school boxers had to perform frequently for the money, and developed tremendous skill and know-how through sheer weight of experience, as an automatic by-product of this prolific activity. Because they boxed so often, a loss here or there was not considered to be so much of a setback as it is today for a winning boxer, if the percentage of wins to losses was respectable. On the basis of experience alone, today's boxers are not a match for the old school variety.
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Old 10-11-2007, 03:48 PM   #38
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by ron u.k.
i despair,i really do.
I don't. Sometimes, people are going to believe what they want to believe, without regard for any preponderance of evidence, reasoning or attempts at persuasion to the contrary. Many of us here (myself usually included) have opinions and biases more or less set in concrete. (As is commonly stated, those with ideas set in stone sink like stone, and I'm the one you'll find at the bottom of the well.)

Maybe better off just giving up and letting go from time to time. (A lesson I haven't managed to internalize just yet, but working on it.)

Be thankful that some of these discussions aren't verbal confrontations, "food fight" debates involving who can shout the loudest, produce the snappiest comeback or loudest laugh. At least in this environment, we can have a chance to get fully "heard out." (Since I joined ESB Classic, I don't even engage in face-to-face arguments anymore. My sanity has improved somewhat, but not enough for me to stop enjoying unreality.)
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Old 10-11-2007, 04:17 PM   #39
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
1. Because Hank very nearly went from 126 to a share of the 160 crown against an opponent he'd previously beaten (a bout readily available for viewing on-line), and he did go the distance with SRR. If his MW rematch with Garcia had also been for 15 rounds, who knows? (Concerning the fractured state of the MW title during the late 1930s, I'm sure he would have knocked out Apostoli as Garcia did. Overlin and Soose may have been too much to ask though.)

2. Duran did knock out potential FW IBHOFer (not that this means too much anymore) Ernesto Marcel, and went on to drop and decision probable IBHOFer Iran Barkley (who eventually retired Coetzee at HW). Duran was shorter and with less of a reach than PBF.

3. I viewed tho two clips of Burley on youtube yesterday, and he doesn't appear to have been the sort of combination puncher SRR was. (However, if Robinson said he was "too pretty" to fight Burley, I can understand why. That doesn't mean he thought Burley would have prevailed, just that he didn't want his face messed up the way Turpin managed to do in their rematch.)

4. Of course he didn't want to face the murderers row crew of that era. Money was the name of the game, and such intra-racial bouts wouldn't be likely to draw, unless a flamboyant character like Archie Moore, or flashy stylist like Kid Gavilan were involved.

5. Plenty of white boxers didn't have an easy time of it either. LaMotta, Graham and Maxim all were kept waiting for title shots. Maxim had to box for nearly a dozen years and over 80 fights before getting Freddie Mills. Billy Graham had to wait for over a decade and record more than 90 wins before getting his first shot at Gavilan. LaMotta had to throw his match against Billy Fox to get Cerdan in the ring. Fritzie Zivic boxed for nine years, and had nearly 130 fights under his belt when he got his shot at Armstrong.

If you're looking for WW II era success stories, you can have Beau Jack and Bob Montgomery. (From their professional debuts to their first NYSAC LW Title tiff, they took four and five years respectively, and got to each other within 60 career fights.)
1. Armstrong was facing a welterweight who was middleweight titlists of sorts in an incredibly weak middleweight era. As pointed out Garcia was not the champ anyway. Imagine if Spinks had got the decision against Taylor (he should have) and Mayweather stepped up and beat Spinks (he would have). Mayweather has effectively jumped as many divisions as Armstrong.

2. Barkley was not a top 5 middleweight when Duran edged a SD over him. Nunn, Benn, Kalambay, McCallum, Eubank, Bomber Grahamwould all have whooped Duran and Barkley. Marcel who?

3/4. Yes but it seems hypocritical to call SRR the greatest of all time and Mayweather a cherry picker when they essentially do the same thing. The difference being Mayweather has fought the best of his time, the best fighters in SRRs era he seems to have skipped - Burley and to a lesser extent Moore/Charles (they were at higher divisions) and others.

5. No this is true and it backs up my point that the assumption that the best always fought the best and Armstrong/SRR cleared out the best of the best is clearly wrong. The best contenders were avoided. Theres nothing new to this.
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Old 10-11-2007, 04:29 PM   #40
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
I viewed tho two clips of Burley on youtube yesterday, and he doesn't appear to have been the sort of combination puncher SRR was. (However, if Robinson said he was "too pretty" to fight Burley, I can understand why. That doesn't mean he thought Burley would have prevailed, just that he didn't want his face messed up the way Turpin managed to do in their rematch.)
You viewed footage of a fighter who was a natural 147lb fighter, forced to take on a 175lb contender because he couldn't get fights anywhere else. Burley's tactics in situations such as these was to sloooooow the action right down - he was so powerful absolutley nobody wanted to train with him and he's amongst the best pot-shoters of all time, so this was possible at the higher weights. Profitable even.



Quote:
Of course he didn't want to face the murderers row crew of that era. Money was the name of the game, and such intra-racial bouts wouldn't be likely to draw, unless a flamboyant character like Archiie Moore, or flashy stylist like Kid Gavilan were involved.
You may be right in general, but not where Charley is concerned. Charley Burley twice had backers rich enough to offer Robinson career best paydays to fight and Burley was desperate enough to take no pay for the fight. Still not enough. When I say Robinson DUCKED Charley Burley, I mean he ducked him.

As for the others, Hogue, Chase, Marshall etc. etc., you may be right. Maybe there wasn't money for those fights. Personally, I beleive there was (Robinson made nothing like what people seem to presume - he was about the road to the title NOT making money on the way there) but you may be right. So what. You want to be rich, fight in the richest fights, you want to be all time #1 fight the best.

Quote:
Plenty of white boxers didn't have an easy time of it either.
Good point.
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Old 10-11-2007, 04:49 PM   #41
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by Duodenum
I don't. Sometimes, people are going to believe what they want to believe, without regard for any preponderance of evidence, reasoning or attempts at persuasion to the contrary. Many of us here (myself usually included) have opinions and biases more or less set in concrete. (As is commonly stated, those with ideas set in stone sink like stone, and I'm the one you'll find at the bottom of the well.)

Maybe better off just giving up and letting go from time to time. (A lesson I haven't managed to internalize just yet, but working on it.)

Be thankful that some of these discussions aren't verbal confrontations, "food fight" debates involving who can shout the loudest, produce the snappiest comeback or loudest laugh. At least in this environment, we can have a chance to get fully "heard out." (Since I joined ESB Classic, I don't even engage in face-to-face arguments anymore. My sanity has improved somewhat, but not enough for me to stop enjoying unreality.)
take your point mate,and everyone is entitled to their opinion,even the ignorant,it's just lines like "robinson's chin was suspect".you know what i mean?
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Old 10-11-2007, 06:30 PM   #42
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by ron u.k.
take your point mate,and everyone is entitled to their opinion,even the ignorant,it's just lines like "robinson's chin was suspect".you know what i mean?
On these boards, such opinions can often be dismissed as the result of punch-induced drain bamage.
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Old 10-11-2007, 06:41 PM   #43
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by john garfield
I admire your grit, ChJ, but you might have an entirely different POV had you seen SRR fight live as a welter. I suspect you'd feel much as you do about Joe C.
Nobody can remember the exact speed Robinson moved at, I'm not giving him the benifit of considerable doubt.
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Old 10-11-2007, 06:41 PM   #44
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Default Re: What would it take for a fighter to eclipse SRR at # 1

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Originally Posted by mr. magoo
Well,

Mayweather has won some 7 titles in 5 different divsions, and has won all of his pro fights thus far. There is very little to almost no padding on that record. If he manages to beat Ricky Hatton in December, it will be a huge step towards placing him along side the sport's elite.
He's already amongst the sport's elite. A nice KO victory would surely help his cause along. He does too many things too well to not be in the discussion of p4p ATG's.
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