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Old 10-12-2007, 06:43 PM   #31
Mendoza
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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OLD FOGEY 1. I have seen film for Jeff against Sharkey and Ruhlin and training in 1900. Certainly he was an athlete, but his agility on his feet might be a bit overrated. As one observer noted, Ruhlin seems to move faster.
I doubt this. If you saw the same training film as I have and you think his agility and reflexes are over rated, I then ask compared to whom?

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2. of the men you mentioned, Sharkey, Ruhlin, Griffin, Munroe, and Everett--Okay, but Sharkey was never knocked out, Ruhlin went to a draw the first time, Griffin and Jeff fought as tyros, and Munroe and Everett were ordinary. Jeff's rep really rests on Fitz and Corbett, not these men.
Total Cherry picking OLD FOGEY. Sharkey was floored in both fights, and if not for the injury Jeffires likely finishes him in the title match. Jeffries KO% in title matches is near the best in heavyweight history. Only a very tough Sharkey made the distance.

Jeffires did knock Ruhlin down and had him out in the final round. Ruhlin was saved by the bell. In the title fight Jeffries knocked Ruhlin out. Griffin was Ko'd, and floored multiple times in an exhibition. Who else knocked Munroe out besides Jeffries? No one that I can think of. Was Everett in his prime ever beaten so quickly? I think not!

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3. Jeff was certainly the better fighter in time and place than Willard, but I don't know if he matches up quite as well as some think. I have not seen Jeff show a good jab on film, but Willard clearly does against Johnson. And the view of Jeff as a skilled boxer, at least defensively, runs up against the heavy damage he suffered in fight after fight. Certainly his performance against Johnson makes one wonder if he would prove as vulnerable to Willard's excellent uppercut as he did to Johnson's.
There is limited film of a prime Jeffries, and the jab was not a big punch in those days, however Jeffries had a jab according to news reads. Jeffries performance vs Johnson means very little in this conversation, and Willard did not have an uppercut equal to Johnson’s.


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4. Corbett was about 37 and had been off for three years when he fought Jeff in 1903. He had been fast and skillful once, but boxing history shows us that older fighters who are not active go back pretty fast. I think this Corbett fight is a thin reed on which to hang the Jeff was a much improved boxer thesis. Jeff had taken brutal punishment from Fitzsimmons in his previous fight.
I was talking about the first fight when Corbett was at his best and 33 years of age. The second fight was easy for Jeffries, who by then had gained some experience. Fitz hit harder than Willard, and was a much better fighter. If he couldn’t KO Jeffries with doctored gloves, what makes you think Willard could? Again, Willard mostly failed to knockout his best opponents.

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5. As I said before, nine of Jeff's twenty fights went a full ten rounds or longer, and of the six fights which hit the fifteenth round, he scored only one knockout. There were contempories who had doubts about his power. I think the very rugged Willard has a good chance of taking this fight deep and actually outlasting Jeffries.
Which contempories had dounts about Jeffires power? Names please. And was Willard really that Rugged? He quit once, and was TKO by the two best punchers he faced inside of 8 rounds both times.

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6. I myself don't think speed afoot would have much to do with winning this fight, given the styles of the two men.
Hand speed is a factor in heavyweight boxing in most cases. Defense, and footwork also matter. I can't think of one advantage Willard had over Jeffries, aside from size. Here's my run down:

Power - Jeffries
Size - Willard
Hand and foot speed - Jeffries
Defense - Jeffries
Chin - Jeffries
Stamina - I will call it a draw.
Skills - Jeffries
Ring General ship - Jeffries
Heart - Jeffries

And finally, I have never read any historian say that Willard was better or ranked higher.

Pick Willard if you wish. You're in the minority.
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Old 10-12-2007, 06:56 PM   #32
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

Actually all we know of Willards stamina is the fight with Johnson. He lost to Smith in his only 20 and in his next longest bout lost to McMahon. Maybe we are giving him too much stamina credit for the win over an out of shape, old and under-motivated Johnson. I ask the question because this thread made me suddenly realise I attribute this stamina claim for Willard also. What do you guys thing? Revisionalism?

Last edited by sweet_scientist; 07-30-2006 at 10:47 PM.
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:07 PM   #33
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Choynski, Willard, Klondike, and Wright for sure.



Choysnki landed a shot to the temple region that casues the KO, though Johnson had issues with body shots in a few of his other matches. Ketchel hurt Johnson with the first hard blow he landed. You could tell Johnson was buzzed as he rolled over and had to brace himself to get up....vs a crude Middle weight. In other fights Johnson was hurt vs journeyman ( Jim Battling Johnson )



McVey, with all due respect you really don't know what you're talking about. I watch more film, and read more news clips than you.

As for Sam McVey, he was a teenager and very green when he meet Johnson. Chins are best tested when someone lands something on them. McVey was a bit crude in his prime...and as a novice he must have had toughmanesque type of skills. Langford was not too many years removed from fighting a as a light weight when he meet Johnson at 156 pounds. If Johnson fought prime versions of McVey and Langford, and took hard shots, then we could see if his chin was tested. Saying his chin was tested in fights vs McVey when he was harldy hit means little.
NO ONE KOD JOHNSON WITH A PUNCH TO THE CHIN,GIVE PROOF TO THE CONTRARY,AND STOP MAKING STATEMENTS YOU CANT VERIFY.YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MANY FIGHTS I WATCH OR HOW MANY NEWS CLIPPINGS I READ,AS USUAL YOU ARE TALKING ****!You are a self appointed expertand historian whose knowledge is vastly overestimated by yourself,your conceit and vanity has detached you from reality. your statement was that Johnsons chin was suspect against punchers PROVE IT OR RETRACT IT.YOU COULD TELL JACK **** FROM THE WAY JOHNSON REACTED TO KETCHELS PUNCH,IMMEDIATELYAFTER THE FIGHT ,JOHNSON WAS ASKED HOW HE FELT BEING FLOORED BY KETCHEL,HE REPLIED,"FAR BETTER THAN KETCHEL DID 30 SECONDS LATER,HE CROSSED ME ,I HANDED HIM WHAT HE DESERVED". aND DONT GIVE ME DUE RESPECT ,I DONT HAVE ANY FOR YOU,YOU ARE A SELF SERVING COMPLACENT PRAT.
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:18 PM   #34
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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mcvey NO ONE KOD JOHNSON WITH A PUNCH TO THE CHIN,GIVE PROOF TO THE CONTRARY,AND STOP MAKING STATEMENTS YOU CANT VERIFY.YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW MANY FIGHTS I WATCH OR HOW MANY NEWS CLIPPINGS I READ,AS USUAL YOU ARE TALKING ****!You are a self appointed expertand historian whose knowledge is vastly overestimated by yourself,your conceit and vanity has detached you from reality. your statement was that Johnsons chin was suspect against punchers PROVE IT OR RETRACT IT.YOU COULD TELL JACK **** FROM THE WAY JOHNSON REACTED TO KETCHELS PUNCH,IMMEDIATELYAFTER THE FIGHT ,JOHNSON WAS ASKED HOW HE FELT BEING FLOORED BY KETCHEL,HE REPLIED,"FAR BETTER THAN KETCHEL DID 30 SECONDS LATER,HE CROSSED ME ,I HANDED HIM WHAT HE DESERVED". aND DONT GIVE ME DUE RESPECT ,I DONT HAVE ANY FOR YOU,YOU ARE A SELF SERVING COMPLACENT PRAT.

Johnson was most Certainly Ko’d from head blows. Deal with it, and clam down. You have chosen to make it personal.



If you keep acting snooty, how can I help you on paragraph formation, spelling, or on boxing? To the rest of the board, you can skip this back and forth stuff. Or sit back and enjoy the show. I plan on sticking in boxing related stuff when McVey needs the proverbial pie in the face.
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:23 PM   #35
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
I doubt this. If you saw the same training film as I have and you think his agility and reflexes are over rated, I then ask compared to whom?



Total Cherry picking OLD FOGEY. Sharkey was floored in both fights, and if not for the injury Jeffires likely finishes him in the title match. Jeffries KO% in title matches is near the best in heavyweight history. Only a very tough Sharkey made the distance.

Jeffires did knock Ruhlin down and had him out in the final round. Ruhlin was saved by the bell. In the title fight Jeffries knocked Ruhlin out. Griffin was Ko'd, and floored multiple times in an exhibition. Who else knocked Munroe out besides Jeffries? No one that I can think of. Was Everett in his prime ever beaten so quickly? I think not!



There is limited film of a prime Jeffries, and the jab was not a big punch in those days, however Jeffries had a jab according to news reads. Jeffries performance vs Johnson means very little in this conversation, and Willard did not have an uppercut equal to Johnson’s.




I was talking about the first fight when Corbett was at his best and 33 years of age. The second fight was easy for Jeffries, who by then had gained some experience. Fitz hit harder than Willard, and was a much better fighter. If he couldn’t KO Jeffries with doctored gloves, what makes you think Willard could? Again, Willard mostly failed to knockout his best opponents.



Which contempories had dounts about Jeffires power? Names please. And was Willard really that Rugged? He quit once, and was TKO by the two best punchers he faced inside of 8 rounds both times.



Hand speed is a factor in heavyweight boxing in most cases. Defense, and footwork also matter. I can't think of one advantage Willard had over Jeffries, aside from size. Here's my run down:

Power - Jeffries
Size - Willard
Hand and foot speed - Jeffries
Defense - Jeffries
Chin - Jeffries
Stamina - I will call it a draw.
Skills - Jeffries
Ring General ship - Jeffries
Heart - Jeffries

And finally, I have never read any historian say that Willard was better or ranked higher.

Pick Willard if you wish. You're in the minority.
HOW IS A FIGHTER WHO DEPENDED ON HIS REFLEXES AND TIMING LIKE NO OTHER OF HIS TIME ,AT HIS BEST WHEN HE HAS HAD 1 FIGHT IN THREE YEARS SINCE LOSING HIS CROWN AND THAT ONE A LOSING ONE.?
jEFFRIES NEVER KOD RUHLIN IN THEIR TITLE FIGHT ,RUHLINS CORNER THREW IN THE TOWEL BETWEEN ROUNDS,EITHER YOUR RESEARCH IS SLOPPY OR YOU ARE DELIBERATEDLY TWISTING THE FACTS , I COULD USE ANOTHER EXPRESSION BUT I WONT. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF FITZS GLOVES WERE DOCTORED? MORE UNSUBSTANTIATED ASSERTIONS.YOU TALK ABOUT CHERRY PICKING TO JANITOR ,YOU MUST LIVE IN AN ORCHARD.WHERE IS YOUR SOURCE FOR JEFFRIES POWER BEING CONSIDERED EQUAL TO DEMPSEYS AS YOU QUOTED.?
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:28 PM   #36
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Johnson was most Certainly Ko’d from head blows. Deal with it, and clam down. You have chosen to make it personal.



If you keep acting snooty, how can I help you on paragraph formation, spelling, or on boxing? To the rest of the board, you can skip this back and forth stuff. Or sit back and enjoy the show. I plan on sticking in boxing related stuff when McVey needs the proverbial pie in the face.
I put this in capitols in case you have problems reading small print .
WHERE IS YOUR PROOF THAT JOHNSON WAS KOD BY A PUNCH TO THE CHIN?
DONT DILUTE YOUR ORIGINAL STATEMNET TO "HEAD PUNCHES "YOU SAID HE HAD A SUSPECT CHIN AGAINST PUNCHERS ,PUT UP OR SHUT UP!
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:41 PM   #37
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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Originally Posted by mattdonnellon
Actually all we know of Willards stamina is the fight with Johnson. He lost to Smith in his only 20 and in his next longest bout lost to McMahon. Maybe we are giving him too much stamina credit for the win over an out of shape, old and under-motivated Johnson. I ask the question because this thread made me suddenly realise I attribute this stamina claim for Willard also. What do you guys thing? Revisionalism?
I think you are right. Both have reps for going a long way, which they did, but it might be a bit harder to prove they really had late beyond the 15th round power. Willard stopped Johnson late. Jeffries stopped Corbett late. Otherwise it was to the final bell much more often than not
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:43 PM   #38
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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Originally Posted by mcvey
I put this in capitols in case you have problems reading small print .
WHERE IS YOUR PROOF THAT JOHNSON WAS KOD BY A PUNCH TO THE CHIN?
DONT DILUTE YOUR ORIGINAL STATEMNET TO "HEAD PUNCHES "YOU SAID HE HAD A SUSPECT CHIN AGAINST PUNCHERS ,PUT UP OR SHUT UP!


Perhaps the small type hinders your comprehension. This is odd since you usually do not type in CAPS, and reply most of the time in small print. I digress.

When I say Johnson had a suspect chin vs punchers, this is to say punchers can knock him out. If could be anywhere, and most ko's aren't from direct chin shots.

Choynski, Klondike, and Willard produced classic on the floor knockouts. Each man could punch. Of course later in his career Johnson was KO’d quite a bit too.

Once again, a fighters durbality is best tested when they are hit. When you fight green or much smaller fighters who can't hit, your durablity is not tested as much.

In the context of heavyweight champions it would be an easy exercise to name at least 12 other champions who took a better punch than Johnson.

If your looking for a chin shot KO, how's this:

Quote:
Johnson held Wright on nearly even terms for four rounds, but in the fifth a solar plexus blow followed by a right uppercut put him down for the full count. (Associated Press)
Uppercuts land on the chin area more often than not. Happy?
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:01 PM   #39
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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Originally Posted by Mendoza


Perhaps the small type hinders your comprehension. This is odd since you usually do not type in CAPS, and reply most of the time in small print. I digress.

When I say Johnson had a suspect chin vs punchers, this is to say punchers can knock him out. If could be anywhere, and most ko's aren't from direct chin shots.

Choynski, Klondike, and Willard produced classic on the floor knockouts. Each man could punch. Of course later in his career Johnson was KO’d quite a bit too.

Once again, a fighters durbality is best tested when they are hit. When you fight green or much smaller fighters who can't hit, your durablity is not tested as much.

In the context of heavyweight champions it would be an easy exercise to name at least 12 other champions who took a better punch than Johnson.

If your looking for a chin shot KO, how's this:


Uppercuts land on the chin area more often than not. Happy?
You have ducked the question as usual,and arent a big enough poster to admit your fault,you said "suspect chin"end of story,you gave no proof to back up your false claim ,as I knew you wouldnt .Johnson was 37 when Willard kod him,and it took him26 rounds in the tropical sun to do it.Johnson was kod after this fight twice by Bearcat Wright and Bill Hartwell ,but that was in 1928 and Johnson was 50 and retired ,does that mean he had a suspect chin? How about his " fight with Walter Price even later ? want to count that one? YOU ARE A SAD ONE ARENT YOU. HOW YOU MUST HATE JOHNSON.
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:04 PM   #40
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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Originally Posted by mcvey
You have ducked the question as usual,and arent a big enough poster to admit your fault,you said "suspect chin"end of story,you gave no proof to back up your false claim ,as I knew you wouldnt .Johnson was 37 when Willard kod him,and it took him26 rounds in the tropical sun to do it.Johnson was kod after this fight twice by Bearcat Wright and Bill Hartwell ,but that was in 1928 and Johnson was 50 and retired ,does that mean he had a suspect chin? How about his " fight with Walter Price even later ? want to count that one? YOU ARE A SAD ONE ARENT YOU. HOW YOU MUST HATE JOHNSON.
Now you're spliting hairs with dates. I see. I did list the Gunboat Smith vs Jack Johnson 4 round match. Be sure to read it. I've got soem more to post later.

Heavyweight who are Ko'd by light heavies, and floored by middles can not say they have a good chin.

I am out for the night. See ya McVey.
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:24 PM   #41
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
I doubt this. If you saw the same training film as I have and you think his agility and reflexes are over rated, I then ask compared to whom?



Total Cherry picking OLD FOGEY. Sharkey was floored in both fights, and if not for the injury Jeffires likely finishes him in the title match. Jeffries KO% in title matches is near the best in heavyweight history. Only a very tough Sharkey made the distance.

Jeffires did knock Ruhlin down and had him out in the final round. Ruhlin was saved by the bell. In the title fight Jeffries knocked Ruhlin out. Griffin was Ko'd, and floored multiple times in an exhibition. Who else knocked Munroe out besides Jeffries? No one that I can think of. Was Everett in his prime ever beaten so quickly? I think not!



There is limited film of a prime Jeffries, and the jab was not a big punch in those days, however Jeffries had a jab according to news reads. Jeffries performance vs Johnson means very little in this conversation, and Willard did not have an uppercut equal to Johnson’s.




I was talking about the first fight when Corbett was at his best and 33 years of age. The second fight was easy for Jeffries, who by then had gained some experience. Fitz hit harder than Willard, and was a much better fighter. If he couldn’t KO Jeffries with doctored gloves, what makes you think Willard could? Again, Willard mostly failed to knockout his best opponents.



Which contempories had dounts about Jeffires power? Names please. And was Willard really that Rugged? He quit once, and was TKO by the two best punchers he faced inside of 8 rounds both times.



Hand speed is a factor in heavyweight boxing in most cases. Defense, and footwork also matter. I can't think of one advantage Willard had over Jeffries, aside from size. Here's my run down:

Power - Jeffries
Size - Willard
Hand and foot speed - Jeffries
Defense - Jeffries
Chin - Jeffries
Stamina - I will call it a draw.
Skills - Jeffries
Ring General ship - Jeffries
Heart - Jeffries

And finally, I have never read any historian say that Willard was better or ranked higher.

Pick Willard if you wish. You're in the minority.
1. Well, Jeff was certainly the best of his era and cleaned out the division in a way only Johnson and Louis would do for the first half of the century.
He was certainly the best champion prior to Louis, in the sense of putting his title on the line against top contenders. There is no doubt he deserves to be considered a better fighter than Willard.

2. I would agree that Fitz hit harder than Willard. But observers such as Jack London in the New York Times thought Fitz hit harder than Jeffries also. Why not? The two had four common opponents--Corbett, Sharkey, Ruhlin, and Choynski. Jeff in seven fights went twenty rounds or more with Sharkey twice, Ruhlin once, Choynski in their only fight, and also went twenty-three rounds with Corbett. He scored three knockouts in seven fights. Fitzsimmons fought five fights against the four men, two with Sharkey and one with each of the others. He scored three knockouts, stopping Corbett, Ruhlin, and Sharkey, but Fitz is more impressive than that. His "loss" in his 1896 fight with Sharkey came with Sharkey sprawled unconscious on the floor from a left to the jaw, Fitz being DQ'd by a probably crooked referee Wyatt Earp. Choynski was dropped four times by Fitz in the fourth round and twice in the fifth. The sheriff intervened with Choynski on the floor and somehow the bout was declared a draw. Jeff did not come nearly as close to knocking out Choynski or Sharkey. Fitz certainly has a big edge as a puncher with Jeffries against common foes.

3. Jack London and Tad Dorgan expressed "doubts" about Jeff's power. London cautioned that Jeff would have to wear Johnson down to win, as he did not have the sock to get him out quick.

4. Willard would not blow away Jeff early. Wearing him down like Johnson did is not out of the question. It would depend if Willard is effective with his long left and his uppercut does damage inside. Willard's uppercut might or might not be in Johnson's class, but Dempsey, at least, is on record as saying it was a powerful and vicious punch, and the fights with Bull Young and Floyd Johnson lend credence to his assertion.

5. "Pick Willard if you wish. You are in a minority." Well, it would be a dull world and a dull forum if the only opinions were majority opinions.

Last edited by OLD FOGEY; 10-13-2007 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 10-12-2007, 09:02 PM   #42
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
1. Well, Jeff was certainly the best of his era and cleaned out the division in way only Johnson and Louis would do for the first half of the century.
He was certainly the best champion prior to Louis, in the sense of putting his title on the line against top contenders. There is no doubt he deserves to be considered a better fighter than Willard.

2. I would agree that Fitz hit harder than Willard. But observers such as Jack London in the New York Times thought Fitz hit harder than Jeffries also. Why not? The two had four common opponents--Corbett, Sharkey, Ruhlin, and Choynski. Jeff in seven fights went twenty rounds or more with Sharkey twice, Ruhlin once, Choynski in their only fight, and also went twenty-three rounds with Corbett. He scored three knockouts in seven fights. Fitzsimmons fought five fights against the four men, two with Sharkey and one with each of the others. He scored three knockouts, stopping Corbett, Ruhlin, and Sharkey, but Fitz is more impressive than that. His "loss" in his 1896 fight with Sharkey came with Sharkey sprawled unconscious on the floor from a left to the jaw, Fitz being DQ'd by a probably crooked referee Wyatt Earp. Choynski was dropped four times by Fitz in the fourth round and twice in the fifth. The sheriff intervened with Choynski on the floor and somehow the bout was declared a draw. Jeff did not come nearly as close to knocking out Choynski or Sharkey. Fitz certainly has a big edge as a puncher with Jeffries against common foes.

3. Jack London and Tad Dorgan expressed "doubts" about Jeff's power. London cautioned that Jeff would have to wear Johnson down to win, as he did not have the sock to get him out quick.

4. Willard would not blow away Jeff early. Wearing him down like Johnson did is not out of the question. It would depend if Willard is effective with his long left and his uppercut does damage inside. Willard's uppercut might or might not be in Johnson's class, but Dempsey, at least, is on record as saying it was a powerful and vicious punch, and the fights with Bull Young and Floyd Johnson lend credence to his assertion.

5. "Pick Willard if you wish. You are in a minority." Well, it would be a dull world and a dull forum if the only opinions were majority opinions.
Ironically ,I posted the Willard Jeffries thread as a "spoof " to Mendacity,I mean Mendoza,mocking his pretensions to objectivity,but the thread seems to have grown legs,now that I seriously ****yse it Willard does have a shot ,your points about Jeffries power are well observed Fitz certainly hs better credentials against common opponents,Johnson thought Fitz the superior puncher to Jefrries,and Choynsky better than both of them,but them he was younger and comparatively green against Choynsky,that impression may have registered deeper.,Gun boat Smith said Willard was a vicious puncher and he met quite a few for comparison ,including Langford and Dempsey.Smith also said Willard could take a hell of a punch and Smith could really hit,when he fought Willard Smith had his hands loaded ,[taped over with electrical tape] this does work beleive me!I know,Ive used it,Smith hit Willard with ,as he described it "his Sunday punch, straight from the floor,Willard s hair wiggled a bit". Later on Smith landed his big punch again ,half tearing Willards ear off,but Jess went the distance.
Talent wise Willard wasnt in Jeffries class ,Jeff was a dominant Champion as you stated ,but Jess might have given him a good go for say 20 rounds ,he was tough ,durable ,strong ,and he could hit,Jeffries never met a man his equal in size or weight this fight would have answered a lot of questions about the Boilermaker.
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Old 10-13-2007, 03:25 AM   #43
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
OLD FOGEY,

The thing to look at here is not track and field numbers but agility and reflexes in boxing shoes.
For the note, I was using track-and-field numbers to illustrate the kind of talent he was, not to argue that he woud beat Willard because he could outsprint him- it's an objective measurement(how good he was at running and jumping in set environments) that helps to illustrate/strengthen a qualitative judgment(how quick/able on his feet he was as far as boxing went)

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In closing regarding Jeffries boxing ability, who are you going to believe? News paper reviews, and testimonials of people who saw him, or “ internet rumors “ that suggest Corbett was up 22-0?


On this part of your post, I will disagree slightly- one can find quotes saying, for example, that Samuel Peter "outboxed" Toney in their rematch, but I absolutely would not believe anyone who tried to tell me Peter has developed into a good boxer and well-rounded fighter. I concede that Jeffries had developed enough skill in addition to his physical and mental assets that he could score points against skilled boxers, but I don't believe he was himself really what you'd call a "good boxer." He was a decent boxer who had great durability and stamina along with good size, athleticism and power, all of which combined made him a great champion and a formidable force for anyone to try to take down.
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Old 10-13-2007, 06:28 AM   #44
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

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Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
For the note, I was using track-and-field numbers to illustrate the kind of talent he was, not to argue that he woud beat Willard because he could outsprint him- it's an objective measurement(how good he was at running and jumping in set environments) that helps to illustrate/strengthen a qualitative judgment(how quick/able on his feet he was as far as boxing went)


On this part of your post, I will disagree slightly- one can find quotes saying, for example, that Samuel Peter "outboxed" Toney in their rematch, but I absolutely would not believe anyone who tried to tell me Peter has developed into a good boxer and well-rounded fighter. I concede that Jeffries had developed enough skill in addition to his physical and mental assets that he could score points against skilled boxers, but I don't believe he was himself really what you'd call a "good boxer." He was a decent boxer who had great durability and stamina along with good size, athleticism and power, all of which combined made him a great champion and a formidable force for anyone to try to take down.
This seems a fair ****ysis to me,and one that agrees with the consensus of written material on Jeffries and his fights.
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Old 10-13-2007, 08:55 AM   #45
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Default Re: Jess Willard versus Jim Jeffries

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Ironically ,I posted the Willard Jeffries thread as a "spoof " to Mendacity,I mean Mendoza,mocking his pretensions to objectivity,but the thread seems to have grown legs,now that I seriously ****yse it Willard does have a shot ,your points about Jeffries power are well observed Fitz certainly hs better credentials against common opponents,Johnson thought Fitz the superior puncher to Jefrries,and Choynsky better than both of them,but them he was younger and comparatively green against Choynsky,that impression may have registered deeper.,Gun boat Smith said Willard was a vicious puncher and he met quite a few for comparison ,including Langford and Dempsey.Smith also said Willard could take a hell of a punch and Smith could really hit,when he fought Willard Smith had his hands loaded ,[taped over with electrical tape] this does work beleive me!I know,Ive used it,Smith hit Willard with ,as he described it "his Sunday punch, straight from the floor,Willard s hair wiggled a bit". Later on Smith landed his big punch again ,half tearing Willards ear off,but Jess went the distance.

Talent wise Willard wasnt in Jeffries class ,Jeff was a dominant Champion as you stated ,but Jess might have given him a good go for say 20 rounds ,he was tough ,durable ,strong ,and he could hit,Jeffries never met a man his equal in size or weight this fight would have answered a lot of questions about the Boilermaker.
Was Gunboat Smith a big puncher? I think this is an exaggeration. While Smith did KO men like Flynn, and Ross faster than Jack Johnson, where are his Knockouts vs the better heavyweights?

The record stats that Smith only had 39 Ko's in 81 wins. This equates to him winning 48.14% or less than half of his fights by knockout. If I were calculate his true KO percentage until 1917 ( Smith went into a tail spin around this time ) , and add the losses and draws, it’s even lower.

If Willard really thought Smith could punch ( Please back this up Mcvey, as your humor seemed to be hit or miss ) then he's in trouble vs the better punchers. As I said before the two best punchers Willard fought stopped him inside of 8 rounds, he quit once, and could be out pointed.
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