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Old 10-13-2007, 08:20 AM   #1
Mendoza
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Default Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

For those how have not read the report, here it is. Ketchel to me was crude, and outclassed by Johnson, though he did put a big lump on Johnson head, forced Johnson to clinch after landing some blows, and scored a knockdown with a shot to the chin.

Johnson had no trouble cutting Ketchel up, and at times him spitting blood. Johnson also had had Ketchel down for a short amount of time in round two.

This does not sound like a fixed fight to me. The story of a fix was Johnson's after Ketchel's death. Perhaps it was to avoid embarrassment. The paper reports that there was no hand shake, Ketchel was nervous, and in fact down. Both men had marks on their face. Both men were knocked down. The alleged fixed fights of the time drew chorus of boos. This fight while slow at times had some real leather flying back and forth.

Although Johnson won the fight by knockout, a fight like this in modern times would have had the critics buzzing. It certainly appears that Johnson had some durability problems from wild swinging middle weight, who in my opinion would not rate in the top 100 heavyweight punchers.
I have not seen the full video fight, but it’s out there to buy.


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Old 10-13-2007, 08:31 AM   #2
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Johnson was not dropped by a punch on his chin, it landed high on his head, at or near the ear.
Of course, the fact that he went down does come in the category of what we call "chin".


That was one of the strangest knockdown i've seen by the way, if you watch the film, you will see that Johnson is falling already before the punch connects. It's very strange. He does look genuinly hurt/strung when he attempts to get up immediatly but fails to do so. His head must have cleared quickly though, when he put Ketchel out 20 seconds later.
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Old 10-13-2007, 08:47 AM   #3
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Wow, very interesting read. Thanks for that.
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Old 10-13-2007, 09:06 AM   #4
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxmomer
Wow, very interesting read. Thanks for that.
Youíre welcome. If you have a request for a news read, ask or PM me. I've got lots of them, and if I don't have it, I know where to get them.

While debating fantasy fights are often entertaining, I like to switch things up and focus on the fights that actually happened every now and then. By reading about what actually happened, we can guess better about fantasy fights and clear up misconceptions.
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Old 10-13-2007, 12:49 PM   #5
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Youíre welcome. If you have a request for a news read, ask or PM me. I've got lots of them, and if I don't have it, I know where to get them.

While debating fantasy fights are often entertaining, I like to switch things up and focus on the fights that actually happened every now and then. By reading about what actually happened, we can guess better about fantasy fights and clear up misconceptions.
And put our own spin on it! Dr Mendacity!
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Old 10-13-2007, 12:53 PM   #6
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
For those how have not read the report, here it is. Ketchel to me was crude, and outclassed by Johnson, though he did put a big lump on Johnson head, forced Johnson to clinch after landing some blows, and scored a knockdown with a shot to the chin.

Johnson had no trouble cutting Ketchel up, and at times him spitting blood. Johnson also had had Ketchel down for a short amount of time in round two.

This does not sound like a fixed fight to me. The story of a fix was Johnson's after Ketchel's death. Perhaps it was to avoid embarrassment. The paper reports that there was no hand shake, Ketchel was nervous, and in fact down. Both men had marks on their face. Both men were knocked down. The alleged fixed fights of the time drew chorus of boos. This fight while slow at times had some real leather flying back and forth.

Although Johnson won the fight by knockout, a fight like this in modern times would have had the critics buzzing. It certainly appears that Johnson had some durability problems from wild swinging middle weight, who in my opinion would not rate in the top 100 heavyweight punchers.
I have not seen the full video fight, but it’s out there to buy.


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You should have asked me, I have the fight ,during which you can plainly see Johnson tagging Ketchel ,then grabbing him and keeping him on his feet,"Whoa Stanley where you going ,?we aint finished yet".
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Old 10-13-2007, 12:58 PM   #7
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
You should have asked me, I have the fight ,during which you can plainly see Johnson tagging Ketchel ,then grabbing him and keeping him on his feet,"Whoa Stanley where you going ,?we aint finished yet".
You havent seen the full video fight ,yet you feel qualified to give your "expert" opinion on it.Johnson carried Ketchel, I defy anyone on this forum to watch the fight in its entirety ,and say different,only a "hater" like you would seriously argue otherwise.SAAAAAAAAD!
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Old 10-13-2007, 04:30 PM   #8
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
You havent seen the full video fight ,yet you feel qualified to give your "expert" opinion on it.Johnson carried Ketchel, I defy anyone on this forum to watch the fight in its entirety ,and say different,only a "hater" like you would seriously argue otherwise.SAAAAAAAAD!
Post your video. The fight was very dull from what I have seen. Regardless of how you spin it, a prime Jack Johnson was embarrassed by a much smaller and cruder fighter.

News reads are generally corresponding to the filmed fights. While the though of Johnson having issues vs lesser fighters is undoutabely a pair of shoes two sizes to small for you, other unbiased posters here appreciate the news reads.

If you ask me nicely, I'll post the round by round Johnson vs Burns fight.
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Old 10-13-2007, 05:11 PM   #9
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Ive given the Forum the opportunity to give their opinions on the fight regarding whether they think the figth was strictly on the level,but perhaps they arent as consumed with beating Johnson as you are ,post what news reads you want ,Ive read about twenty on the Burns Johnson fight,have you got H D Mcintosh,s one from his diary?Ill give you a little taster,where he says Johnson fouled Burns early in the fight,when Mcintosh called on them to break Johnson held on to Burns and smashed home his right uppercut smashing Burns nose and mouth? Just a little teaser for you.How about where Johnson talks to Burns and tells him his wife Jewel wont know him when Jack gets through with him.I see you didnt mention that Gunboat smith confirmed the Ketchel Johnson fight was a fix in his 1970 interview.All youve got is a few tattered news clippings which are spun whichever way the writer inate prejudices were inclined,everybody is allready aware of them.I have no objection to any information from any source,the posters on this site,those that arent allready bored shitless by this subject, will draw their own conclusions from them,thats as it should be.Not read Mcintoshs auto biography" A life Time In Sport",? Shame on you.and you a "historian " and "archivist".Talking about embarrassment ,how do you think your hero Jack Obrien felt being kod by ,"a smaller cruderfighter" twice?
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Old 10-14-2007, 01:10 AM   #10
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

I agree that Johnson carried Ketchel at times during the fight, but I think he was toying with him, not carrying him for an intended fix.
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:06 AM   #11
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
I agree that Johnson carried Ketchel at times during the fight, but I think he was toying with him, not carrying him for an intended fix.
I would agree with that. If it was a fix I don't see why Ketchel would have been out to do damage to Johnson from the get go like it seems he was.
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:00 AM   #12
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
I agree that Johnson carried Ketchel at times during the fight, but I think he was toying with him, not carrying him for an intended fix.
This is how I see it too. While Johnson was good on defense, I don't think he was a defensive wizard if he wasn't clinching. Many of his fights I posted suggest he could be hit, marked up, and hurt vs non-elielte level heavyweights.
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Old 10-14-2007, 08:19 AM   #13
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Ive given the Forum the opportunity to give their opinions on the fight regarding whether they think the figth was strictly on the level,but perhaps they arent as consumed with beating Johnson as you are ,post what news reads you want ,Ive read about twenty on the Burns Johnson fight,have you got H D Mcintosh,s one from his diary?Ill give you a little taster,where he says Johnson fouled Burns early in the fight,when Mcintosh called on them to break Johnson held on to Burns and smashed home his right uppercut smashing Burns nose and mouth? Just a little teaser for you.How about where Johnson talks to Burns and tells him his wife Jewel wont know him when Jack gets through with him.I see you didnt mention that Gunboat smith confirmed the Ketchel Johnson fight was a fix in his 1970 interview.All youve got is a few tattered news clippings which are spun whichever way the writer inate prejudices were inclined,everybody is allready aware of them.I have no objection to any information from any source,the posters on this site,those that arent allready bored shitless by this subject, will draw their own conclusions from them,thats as it should be.Not read Mcintoshs auto biography" A life Time In Sport",? Shame on you.and you a "historian " and "archivist".Talking about embarrassment ,how do you think your hero Jack Obrien felt being kod by ,"a smaller cruderfighter" twice?
The fight was not a fix in my opinion. Why make noise of it when Ketchel after Ketchel died? Ah, a dead man does not speak and canít call you a lair. IMO, Johnson made up a lot of stuff and was somewhat embarrassed in victory. Why do you believe him? You agree with me that the Willard dive was a bogus lie from Johnson. Keep in mind Johnson gave Gunboat money to be his sparring partner. And if you believe Johnson was in ď fixed fights ďthen are you also open to the possibility that some people agreed not to beat him in exchange for a pay day?

I find this hard to say without sounding condescending, but it would be easier for other posters to read your stuff if you form paragraphs.

As for the Burns fight, I have some information to share with you.
Are you aware Burns was ill with jaundice? Itís true. In fact Burns was at an all time low weight of 168 pounds for the fight. His normal in shape weight was 181-184, and this was three months before the fight vs Squires.

Burns begged Promoter HD McIntosh to give him another week to get well. HD McIntosh told Burns the tickets were already sold and the show must go on or he won't get paid!

Burns claims to have broken Johnson's ribs ( Not sure if it is true or not ), and made a fair account of himself given the circumstances that he was a much smaller and ill. The fight film shows Burns gave Johnson a black eye. Johnson was in control of the match for sure.

I do agree with you when you said Johnson hit and held. I have read two full reports on the fight ( I can post one if you ask nicely ), and seen many clips.
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Old 10-14-2007, 05:56 PM   #14
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
The fight was not a fix in my opinion. Why make noise of it when Ketchel after Ketchel died? Ah, a dead man does not speak and canít call you a lair. IMO, Johnson made up a lot of stuff and was somewhat embarrassed in victory. Why do you believe him? You agree with me that the Willard dive was a bogus lie from Johnson. Keep in mind Johnson gave Gunboat money to be his sparring partner. And if you believe Johnson was in ď fixed fights ďthen are you also open to the possibility that some people agreed not to beat him in exchange for a pay day?

I find this hard to say without sounding condescending, but it would be easier for other posters to read your stuff if you form paragraphs.

As for the Burns fight, I have some information to share with you.
Are you aware Burns was ill with jaundice? Itís true. In fact Burns was at an all time low weight of 168 pounds for the fight. His normal in shape weight was 181-184, and this was three months before the fight vs Squires.

Burns begged Promoter HD McIntosh to give him another week to get well. HD McIntosh told Burns the tickets were already sold and the show must go on or he won't get paid!

Burns claims to have broken Johnson's ribs ( Not sure if it is true or not ), and made a fair account of himself given the circumstances that he was a much smaller and ill. The fight film shows Burns gave Johnson a black eye. Johnson was in control of the match for sure.

I do agree with you when you said Johnson hit and held. I have read two full reports on the fight ( I can post one if you ask nicely ), and seen many clips.
"The fight film shows Johnson had a black eye" Is this a joke?Burns didnt win a round .Johnson was well known to stretch the truth,I havent even taken in to account his version of the Ketchel fight ,he said the Willard fight was fixed I dont beleive him ,Im more persuaded by the evidence of my own eyes and the account by Smith which was given in 1970,not when Smith was employed by Johnson.I think you find it hard to saty anything without sounding condescending ,thats the trouble with you,,why call yourself a Historian and an archivist? Youre asking to be deflated .,dont worry too much about my grammar ,[I have astygmatism ]which often leads to mispelling and innapropriate spacing ,just look at the content,not the packaging.
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Old 10-15-2007, 07:09 AM   #15
Mendoza
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Default Re: Ketchel vs Johnson news read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
"The fight film shows Johnson had a black eye" Is this a joke?Burns didnt win a round .Johnson was well known to stretch the truth,I havent even taken in to account his version of the Ketchel fight ,he said the Willard fight was fixed I dont beleive him ,Im more persuaded by the evidence of my own eyes and the account by Smith which was given in 1970,not when Smith was employed by Johnson.I think you find it hard to saty anything without sounding condescending ,thats the trouble with you,,why call yourself a Historian and an archivist? Youre asking to be deflated .,dont worry too much about my grammar ,[I have astygmatism ]which often leads to mispelling and innapropriate spacing ,just look at the content,not the packaging.
No it is not a joke. Burns got in a right hand early, and swelling on Johnson’s left eye can be seen in the film and photos.

A historian is a research person and an archivist. I do both. In addition, I have boxed, and study / break down films. I have seen at least a 1,000 boxing matches and own many dvd's and boxing tapes. Having said that there are plenty who know more than me.

If you have astigmatism, that's fine. Just don't call people out on numbers, or dates which is something I've seen you do before.
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