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Old 10-14-2007, 06:23 PM   #31
brownpimp88
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Hearns is better than either at MW head to head, and he's certainly not smaller than Hagler, regardless of what starting weight. Also, depending on how you saw the Leonard fight, you could say that one.

Some of the names beaten, I'd give Hagler the edge.

Ray Seales x3
Willie Monroe x2
Bennie Briscoe(just like Monzon)
Vito Antuofermo x2
Loucif Hamani
Alan Minter
Mustafa Hamsho x2
Tony Sibson
Wilford Scypion
Roberto Duran
Juan Roldan
Tommy Hearns
John Mugabi

Gimme Monzon's resume and where you think he has the edge.
Monzons guys are clearly better, why do i get the feeling that you really dont know many of them. Emile griffith accomplished more at middleweight than hearns did, and you saying he beats griffith head to head is pure speculation. I can say that napoles woudl box durans ears off head to head, wait a minute, that would be the most likely result.
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Old 10-14-2007, 09:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Nah, Napoles was a smaller version of Hagler basically, and a past prime Napoles was worse. I think Duran has a style to give Napoles a great fight, it would be pretty hard to gauge who wins that one in my opinion. And Griffith was certainly past his best at MW, and when he fought Monzon. Hagler's win over Hearns was better than both.

You're way off base if you think I don't know Griffith and Napoles by the way.
\
Monzon beat about 6 natural middleweights that would be abc beltholders in today's era, and he beat 2 great middleweights like valdez and benvenuti. He wouldnt fight his own friend galindez and from what i heard its conteh's management's fault as to why they didnt fight, so yeah monzon is not the king of fighting smaller guys if he beat about 6 good fighters in his own weight class. His resume is up there with benny leonard's imo. The only difference is that monzon reigned for 7 years and never lost in his prime.
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Old 10-14-2007, 09:56 PM   #33
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

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Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
But of better quality than Monzon, and I don't rate Hagler top 10 either, but he's a couple spots higher, both in the top 20.



Nope. Monzon title defences were mostly stronger. Hagler's pre-title opponents better. Griffith was a better middleweight than Hearns, that's obvious. Tommy's legs were gone after three mintues of the Hagler fight. I don't care how furious it was, that's not good.
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Old 10-14-2007, 09:58 PM   #34
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

Naploles was still regarded as the pfp #1 when Monzon beat him, Duran certainly wasn't when he fought Hagler.
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:00 PM   #35
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweet Pea
Hearns is better than either at MW head to head, and he's certainly not smaller than Hagler, regardless of what starting weight. Also, depending on how you saw the Leonard fight, you could say that one.

Some of the names beaten, I'd give Hagler the edge.

Ray Seales x3
Willie Monroe x2
Bennie Briscoe(just like Monzon)
Vito Antuofermo x2
Loucif Hamani
Alan Minter
Mustafa Hamsho x2
Tony Sibson
Wilford Scypion
Roberto Duran
Juan Roldan
Tommy Hearns
John Mugabi

Gimme Monzon's resume and where you think he has the edge.

Well, Valdez, Griffith and Benvenuti were more consitent middleweights than all of them, only Tommy ranks alongside those three at 160.
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Old 10-15-2007, 02:23 AM   #36
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

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Originally Posted by My dinner with Conteh
Well, Valdez, Griffith and Benvenuti were more consitent middleweights than all of them, only Tommy ranks alongside those three at 160.
What about Frank 'the animal' Fletcher?
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Old 10-15-2007, 02:28 AM   #37
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

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What about Frank 'the animal' Fletcher?
Ask redrooster, Frank le animarl would have beat Hearns, Valdez and Griffith all on the same night.
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Old 10-15-2007, 02:34 AM   #38
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

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Ask redrooster, Frank le animarl would have beat Hearns, Valdez and Griffith all on the same night.
Damn straight he would have! Have you seen the animal in action? Thing of beauty. redrooster is a wise man
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Old 10-15-2007, 02:38 AM   #39
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

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Damn straight he would have! Have you seen the animal in action? Thing of beauty. redrooster is a wise man
I have actually. I'm still astonished at the sheer amount of blood he left on the canvsas vs Roldan. The looks on Bo Derek's face at ringside are simply priceless.
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Old 10-15-2007, 02:40 AM   #40
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

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Originally Posted by red cobra
I'm not considering him as a person. He had a cruel, really mean look about him that wasn't a put on, or theatrical. Being a monster probably helped him as a fighter. I bet nobody screwed with him in prison. Like I said, he was as least as good as Ali, despite all of Ali's bells and whistles and charisma. It's kind of hard to compare two great fighters of different divisions, but the rest of those mentioned were in or near his weight class and if matced up, he would have beaten them with room to spare. Leonard by a decision or late tko, and Duran and Oscar he would have beaten like rag dolls, all coldly and systematically. He would have really hurt those guys.
Of course he would've beaten DLH and Duran at 160... both were former lightweights, and peaked between 135 and 147. DLH was rubbish at 160, Duran wasn't that much better. Leonard at 160 would give him a good fight, but wouldn't win. Stupid matchups. You are much better matching him with Hagler, Robinson, Hopkins, Walker, Tiger etc.

FWIW, I have him at number 2 at 160, but only top 20 P4P.
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Old 10-15-2007, 04:31 AM   #41
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

IMO Hagler has an argument of having a slightly better wins resume than Monzon only if you include the Ray Leonard fight as a win for him. I do, and still consider it pretty hard to split their resumes.

Last edited by sweet_scientist; 10-15-2007 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 10-15-2007, 07:44 AM   #42
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

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Originally Posted by boydsmith


Im inclined to say yes
I'm inclined to say no good friend though as you know I am a big fan.

You can never get him above Greb, Langford, Robinson, Armstrong, Chrales, Benny Leonard anyway...after that things start to get interesting again.

I have him at #2 MW.
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Old 10-15-2007, 10:50 AM   #43
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

Sweet Pea,

Monzon beat better fighters then Hagler and i am a huge Hagler fan. Honestly Valdez is enough to beat anyone Hagler ever beat including Duran, Hearns and Leonard
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:37 PM   #44
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

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Originally Posted by boydsmith


Im inclined to say yes
Absolutely!! All the accolades Robinson gets should go to Monzon. Monzon would have whipped him. Monzon is the greatest P4P ever.
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Old 11-17-2007, 06:48 PM   #45
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Default Re: *Monzon - True or false, if he was American he'd be top 5 P4P all time?*

It isn't when concerning Monzon's reign. He had it tougher than Hagler. Better middleweights and fighting in another continent all the time.
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