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Old 06-23-2013, 02:50 AM   #256
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

If it's the bigger man doing the stalking, I see this being a shootout; a toss-up between Lennox' superior firepower, and Louis' skill and craft. The key weapons for each in this scenario would be the hook-straight combination Lewis was ever so fond of, and the cross over the top for the Bomber. Joe should be able to draw first blood in the majority of exchanges because Lewis will always look to establish his jab. This commitment to the jab may be costly, as I don't believe Lennox' jab was as accurate as Joe's counter right. Lewis' follow-up may also be slipped if Louis detects a predictable pattern in his attack.

To win, Lewis should employ healthy movement, box from a distance where his jab can be freely launched without too much risk of return fire. Once Louis is pre-occupied enough with this punch (regardless of whether it is landing or not), Lewis can start shooting the uppercut straight up, which is a fight-ender in my eyes.

Last edited by Quick Cash; 06-23-2013 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 06-23-2013, 05:30 AM   #257
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
Look at what you wrote and the list you provided. Each of the fighters you listed in succession would/would be favourite to beat their predecessor. This indicates that those fighters are NOT timeless in the sense of h2h!
Personaly I would not favour all of theose fightrs to beat their predecesors, and even if I did it wouldn't necisarily mean that the later fighter was a better finisher.

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Lewis is SO much more dangerous than Louis, he would be a certain first round blow out!
Firstly, Lewis needed more than a round to put away some much weaker fighters than Lewis.

Secondly, I doubt that you would ever predict a first round knockout in a fight that was actualy going to happen, where your prediction was going to be tested.

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Look at what Lewis did to Ruddock, Grant, Botha and Golotta. Half the time Lewis wouldn't be allowed to fight Joe because he didn't make the HW limit.
I am not even sure that the size argument is very compeling here.

Louis was no smaller than Evander Holyfield, who most people regard as Lewis's most dangerous oponent, and he was clearly a far more dangerous puncher.

Louis came in at 207lbs against his larger opponents without ever toutching weights or steroids.
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Old 06-23-2013, 06:12 AM   #258
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Secondly, I doubt that you would ever predict a first round knockout in a fight that was actualy going to happen, where your prediction was going to be tested.
HaHA... Since when have you shown any ability to predict current fights, janitor? Every old time nutbag on here should be called to the blackboard... and if they can't predict current fights, they should be quiet about historical hypotheticals and stop disrespecting modern fighters.
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Old 06-23-2013, 02:26 PM   #259
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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HaHA... Since when have you shown any ability to predict current fights, janitor? Every old time nutbag on here should be called to the blackboard... and if they can't predict current fights, they should be quiet about historical hypotheticals and stop disrespecting modern fighters.
If you bothered to check, you would see that my track record at predicting contemporary fights is actually pretty respectable.

I would also question how exactly I am disrespecting modern fighters. Even if I pick against a fighter in a fantasy fight, I always talk about them in respectful terms.
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Old 06-23-2013, 02:40 PM   #260
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
You provided that list as finishers! And I just simply noticed, eras aside that each one in succession seemed favourite against the one before.
If we were any good at predicting the outcomes of fights we wouldn't need to work for a living, so I tend not to put too much weight on what people think the outcome of a fantasy fight would be.

What we can say with a degree of certainty, is that Louis has by far the best resume of any fighter on that list.

That aside, would it be a stretch to imagine Tyson beating Lewis, or Liston beating Tyson, or Sullivan beating Langford?

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Firstly, Lennox fought almost exclusively decent opponents! I don't think he ever fought an opponent as mismatched as Louis!
This is a truly absurd statment.

Are you seriously going to try to tell me that every opponent that Lewis fought including all the fringe contenders and tomato cans was better than Louis?

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Secondly, I ONLY predict a 1st round knockout in fights where the comparison is SO far removed from what is actually possible that I foresee no other outcome. If such a fight were made today I would give similar prediction. Obviously since most fights of the same era are more competitive, so are my predictions. It's really obvious!
I refuse to believe that you cannot find some fight today that you feel is a greater mismatch.

The fact is that you wont predict a first round knockout of any fighter above the level of a tomato can today, and you would not be making such a prediction here if the fight was going down tomorrow.


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Come on now Janitor, be serious and don't just argue for the sake of it! Ok so we'll take the heaviest version of Louis we can ok as the example. Even at 207lbs he was not comparable to a modern athlete. I have seen the man fight and I have seen his picture. You can't tell me this guy is in any way shape or form a match for Holyfield even at the same weight!
I am telling you precisely that.

Holyfield was able to make the amateur light heavyweight limit at the age of 23 and was able to make 190lbs at the age of 25. Louis was coming in at nearer 200lbs at the age of 21.

Louis weighed as muchg as the Holyfield of the Bowe fights without ever touching weights or steroids.

He was at the very least the physical equal of Holyfield.

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Even punch power, Holyfield who is regarded as a featherfist today, would be regarded as the hardest puncher of all time in the 30's. And Joe Louis couldn't crack an egg compared to today's heavies. He'd have a basically non-existent punch.
This statmnet is beyond ridiculous.

Joe Louis broke a mans spine with a single punch, and drove people teeth through their gum shields, yet he wouldn't be able to crack and egg today?

Even people who are skeptical about Louis don't usualy question his power.

While Holyfield was the greatest of the former cruiserweights, he was not a powe hitter even at that weight. An example of a modern cruiserweight with comparable power to Louis would be somebody like Herbie Hide or David Haye.

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No disrespect to Louis, he is an ATG and a great boxer, but he ain't beating any of the remarkable opponents of Lewis and ain't having a competitive fight with him!
You are dishing the disrespect out prety thick.

Louis was arguably the best finisher the heavyweight division ever produced bar none.

That in itself means that he has an excelent chance against Lewis.

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I'll respect your opinion, you're entitled to it but I'm frustrated by the logic involved in it!
I think that your opinion is more extreme, and further removed from the mainstream even than mine.

Even the people who don't think Louis would beat Lewis, usualy accept that he would be an extremely dangerous fight for him, and don't question his credentials as a puncher or finisher.
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Old 06-23-2013, 03:48 PM   #261
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

Tommo is completely legitimate, and believes what he says. Pigs fly, and my farts turn lead to gold.
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Old 06-24-2013, 01:32 AM   #262
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Originally Posted by Tommo View Post






Come on now Janitor, be serious and don't just argue for the sake of it! Ok so we'll take the heaviest version of Louis we can ok as the example. Even at 207lbs he was not comparable to a modern athlete. I have seen the man fight and I have seen his picture. You can't tell me this guy is in any way shape or form a match for Holyfield even at the same weight! Even punch power, Holyfield who is regarded as a featherfist today, would be regarded as the hardest puncher of all time in the 30's. And Joe Louis couldn't crack an egg compared to today's heavies. He'd have a basically non-existent punch.
WTF?

Maybe if you were talking about a bodybuildiing contest it might be true. Joe Louis hit harder than Holyfield everyday of the week. Joe Louis could hurt anybody he catches clean. To say otherwise is to deny reality.

I dont doubt he would have some problems with the bigger heavyweights as far as reaching them. Lewis presents problems as would others but your taking it way too far.

You have quite a vivid imagination.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:26 AM   #263
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Louis was certainly a hard puncher in his era and could still crack today I'm not that na´ve but to say he would rank in punch power against todays professional heavyweights who are trained superiorly to anything Louis ever imagined is wearing the thickest rose coloured glasses you could find!

OF COURSE! Holyfield could crack harder than Louis! Look at them, look at them punch! Look at the opponents each was hitting! Holy fought the toughest opponents of all and at a weight disadvantage too and still managed to knock out and hurt them!

Louis never smelled of such opposition. I've no doubt Holyfield could beat the absolute snot out of every single one of those opponents!
With respect, you are living in a fantasy world if you think that Holyfield hit harder than Louis.

Its not even as if Holyfield was blasting everybody out at cruiserweight, so you can't even use the argument that it was the size of their respective opposition.

You seem to be confusing the sport of boxing with bodybuilding on some level.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:47 AM   #264
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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No mate I am certainly not. I would stake a huge bet that if we had a pressure test for them, Holy would certainly rate higher than Louis. I don't LIKE having to rely on size but pull up Louis on wiki and look at his picture hard. Anybody who thinks this guy, considering Holy was a pro boxer and the champ, no matter how good his technique was could hit as hard as Holy has to be absolutely brainwashed!

If you adjust Louis' KOratio appropriately, you'll find he was a decent puncher but nothing special.

In fact most all of these all time greats aren't anything so special they could transgress many eras... They are simply FAMOUS and now... HYPED!
You cannot make an informed judgment about which of two fighters hit harder by looking at pictures of them. To think that you can is just foolish. Power is a neuromuscular thing, and fighters are pretty much born with it or not. This is boxing not body building.

You bring up the issue of Louis's KO ratio. I am not a big believer in KO ratio but Holyfields KO% was 50%, while Louis was more like 75%, so this is hardly favourable to your argument.

Do you know how many men Holyfield put down for the count of ten?

Five.

In a career of 50+ professional fights he only scored five clean knockouts and the rest were TKOs, usually late in the fight.

That hardly speaks of a fighter who was putting people away like Louis.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:03 AM   #265
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Of course you can't compare Louis ratio like that because they are mostly cruisers.

And still look at the opponents. Holy faced the hardest+heaviest CW's possible because they had to make weigwhereas Louis's did not so they were softer and Louis outweighed nearly all of them!
The crucial difference between the fighters under 190lbs that Holyfield fout at cruiserweight and the fighters under 190lbs that Louis fought at heavyweight, is that the latter group had to take fights with men weighing more than 190lbs to secure their place in the division, wher as the former group did not.

A man who weighs 190lbs who has beaten a man weighing 210lbs to get a ranking in the heavyweight division is not a cruiserweight.

A cruiserweight is a man who will never be matched against a man weighing more than 190lbs, or 200lbs as it is today.

Defences at cruiserweight are furthger devalued by the fact that the best fighters able to make that weight usualy step up to heavyweight where the real money is.

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That was how Louis magically defeated his opponents mainly (but not always). He compiled his resume by bumming his way through to 66 (but not always of course).
You rely don't know what you are talking about here.

Louis fought 31 oponents who were curently ranked in the top 10 by Ring Magazine. That is nearly half his profesional fights for christs sake.

Youy might argue that he fought in aweak era, but it is difficult to see how he could have done much more with the opposition available.

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Holy also faced the toughest+heaviest and most skilled natural HW's of all time, whereas Louis' natural HW (or super heavies if you will) were of the oaf variety.
So Holyfield is better because his opponbents were bigger, but then when Louis fights a bigger man it dosn't count.

Bit of a doubler standard there perhaps?

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There is no comparison between the calibre of Holy's opponents to Louis's!
Holyfield also lost to his best opponents, lets not forgett that.

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I admit I have shot my mouth off without any hard evidence to support Holy hitting harder and although boxing is not bodybuilding, Holy got his muscles via plyometrics and HITT drills, not usual resistance training. The pictures are prove nothing but suggest much. And intuitively any who take off the rose glasses for a second must admit that Louis' credentials as a top puncher in modern times is in serious doubt!
Why would Louis's credentials as a puncher today be in serious doubt?

He knocked out prety much every fighter around of every style.

The big guys were disposed of more quickly than the little guys.

He was more destructive against superheavyweigths than any other fighter under 6'2'' in history, including Mike Tyson by the way.

What else could he realy be asked to prove?
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:29 AM   #266
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

Louis feasted on those Cruiserweights like Max Baer, Carnera, Buddy Baer, Lou Nova and Abe Simon. Practically middleweights in todays game.

I do think Joe couldve put Czyz down though. Something Holyfied didnt do.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:46 AM   #267
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

Got to be Lennox- I don't really see how Joe could get through a ramrod jab, delivered by a 6 ft 5 super-heavyweight of Lewis's skill, with awesome right hand power. This is no overgrown, ungainly lummox, which best described the bigger heavies of the 1930s and 1940s. This is a different era- some idiots just need to accept that 198 pound heavies will never dominate the division ever again- only a total tool would think otherwise.
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Old 06-25-2013, 06:30 AM   #268
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Got to be Lennox- I don't really see how Joe could get through a ramrod jab, delivered by a 6 ft 5 super-heavyweight of Lewis's skill, with awesome right hand power.
If Lewis's only plan was to stick a jab in Louis's face and hope he didn't get past it, then he wouldn't even give him a competitive fight, never mind beat him.

I think enough of Lewis to assume that he would come up with a better plan.
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Old 06-25-2013, 06:31 AM   #269
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Louis feasted on those Cruiserweights like Max Baer, Carnera, Buddy Baer, Lou Nova and Abe Simon. Practically middleweights in todays game.

I do think Joe couldve put Czyz down though. Something Holyfied didnt do.
So you think that Carnera, Baer and Simon would have been cruiserweights or even midleweights today?
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:57 AM   #270
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Originally Posted by janitor View Post
If Lewis's only plan was to stick a jab in Louis's face and hope he didn't get past it, then he wouldn't even give him a competitive fight, never mind beat him.

I think enough of Lewis to assume that he would come up with a better plan.
He likely wouldn't get past it, the right hand off the jab would end the night fairly quickly.
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