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Old 06-25-2013, 08:09 AM   #271
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Originally Posted by Moe Faux View Post
He likely wouldn't get past it, the right hand off the jab would end the night fairly quickly.
Do you think that Louis would even have got past Primo Carnera, if he had any difficulty dealing with a jab?

I honestly think that some modern fight fans are so accustomed to watching the Klitschko brothers jab limited fighters like Sam Peter into submission, that they just imagine the faces of the all time greats attached to their bodies.

That isn't going to work against a more multi dimensional fighter like Louis, because getting inside a jab is a basic for him.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:11 AM   #272
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Do you think that Louis would even have got past Primo Carnera, if he had any difficulty dealing with a jab?

Brilliant. Yes, because just like you, every time I saw Lewis in action i thought "he's Primo's doppleganger he is".
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:41 PM   #273
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

After reading parts of this thread the one question I have is has boxing evolved or regressed? It seems to me if you pick Louis over Lewis, you have to concede it's regressed, and if you pick Lewis over Louis you would have to say that if it hasn't evolved, at least it hasn't seriously regressed.

Either that, or Louis has such a superior skillset that he can make up for all his physical deficiencies. And since may people would at worst consider Lewis the 2nd best fighter of the 90's, we're back to the sport having to have regressed for this to have occurred.
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Old 06-26-2013, 06:08 AM   #274
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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OMG so because Louis could work out Carnera he's gonna be able to deal with Lennox, what a delusion LOL! First round KO. And absolutely has boxing progressed. Hard to believe anybody who watches those old fights of Louis, really thinks he's anything for Lewis to worry about!
OK, nobody is suggesting that Primo Carnera is a good as Lennox Lewis, but styles make fights.

There is nothing in Louis's fights against guys of Lewis's size and style to suggest that he was particularly troubled by either their size or style. Indeed these seem to be precisely the kind of opponents he feasts on.

If these fighters were being competitive against Louis in loosing efforts, or giving him stylistic problems, then it would strengthen your case, but they weren’t. Even Mike Tyson usually had to go to the score cards against guys Lewis's size, because they at least managed to spoil to the finish line. Louis simply destroyed them.

All of this points to a stylistic advantage for Louis.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:02 AM   #275
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Your kidding me Janitor! That is the most loosely based argument I have ever read lol. Your really scraping the bottom of the barrel to save Joe now.
It is not a loosley based argument in any way shape of form because styles make fights.

If you want to work out how to ATGs might fare against eachother in a fantasy fight, you start by lookig at how each of them fared against the opponents that were most like the other, and 99 times out of 100 there wont be an all time great on their record who is similar to the other guy.

What you do is work out the stylistic dynamic of the fight.

All that you seem to be doing at the moment is looking at who has the largest biceps.

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First of all, style wise, those big oafs were in no way shape or form comparable to Lewis! Louis feasted on oafs. Mike's large opponents who stretched him for a decision were heaps better than those guys already! Joe Louis never fought anybody even remotely like Tyson or Lewis.
You are being a bit inconsistent here.

If you are going to base your argument primarily on size, to the extent of refusing to recognise wins over Hall of Famers who were below a certain weight, then you can hardly fail to give Louis credit when he does dominate a bigger opponent.

It almost seems like you want a get out clause on your principle argument here.

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Beating up Baer, Simon and Carnera point to absolutely no STYLISTIC advantage whatsoever! They didn't have anything we would regard as style!
If you think that then you don't know what you are looking at.

Carnera might not have been an all time great, but he was probably a better all round technician than a lot of the superheavyweights that Lewis fought.

Quote:
Apart from these ungainly giants, what Joe IS famous for is outsizing his more skilled opponents. That's the style of Joe Louis!
It is an unavoidable fact that Louis did better against bigger opponents.

It is also an unavoidable fact that he was more destructive against the elite superheavyweights of his day, than any other champion in history.

This cannot simply be overlooked when matching him against bigger opponents.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:12 AM   #276
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

To me, this Janitor guy comes off like a troll. He compares Carnera with Lewis, is laughed out of the place...realises what a total dolt he's looking...retracts his absurd comment...then says "Louis feasted on big men". What he forgot to mention, was that he didn't feast on big, superbly athletic men with excellent jabs and chilling right hand power. Budd Baar... Abe Simon.. Primo. **** off!


I love it when they say "well, he was outweighed by xxxx stone and still did this". Is anybody disputing that a great smaller fighter couldn't starch a big, average lummox? No. Well, i'm certainly not one of them- and a great smaller fighter can definitely beat a nearly great bigger fighter too, but we're dealing with two great fighters here and Lewis on top of his game would have an excellent change against any heavyweight- and here he has significant advantages over the other guy, which would likely be apparent if they ever fought at the respective weights.

I think what he needs to do is try turning the colour down on the TV when he watches Lewis fight and pretends it happened 70 years ago...I'm sure that will improve his opinion of him. Of course, when a modern day big Lummox like Tyson Fury gets put on his arse by someone he massively outweighs this means that guy could smash Lennox Lewis too.


Re: The thing about Carnera jab is this- I, like many, probably saw his jab in action for the first time and was pleasantly surprised...surprised it wasn't about three tiers below Jack Bodell's. Comparing it to Lewis's is troll-like and, sadly, pathetic.
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:28 AM   #277
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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Originally Posted by Moe Faux View Post
To me, this Janitor guy comes off like a troll. He compares Carnera with Lewis, is laughed out of the place...realises what a total dolt he's looking...retracts his absurd comment...then says "Louis feasted on big men". What he forgot to mention, was that he didn't feast on big, superbly athletic men with excellent jabs and chilling right hand power. Budd Baar... Abe Simon.. Primo. **** off!


I love it when they say "well, he was outweighed by xxxx stone and still did this". Is anybody disputing that a great smaller fighter couldn't starch a big, average lummox? No. Well, i'm certainly not one of them- and a great smaller fighter can definitely beat a nearly great bigger fighter too, but we're dealing with two great fighters here and Lewis on top of his game would have an excellent change against any heavyweight- and here he has significant advantages over the other guy, which would likely be apparent if they ever fought at the respective weights.

I think what he needs to do is try turning the colour down on the TV when he watches Lewis fight and pretends it happened 70 years ago...I'm sure that will improve his opinion of him. Of course, when a modern day big Lummox like Tyson Fury gets put on his arse by someone he massively outweighs this means that guy could smash Lennox Lewis too.


Re: The thing about Carnera jab is this- I, like many, probably saw his jab in action for the first time and was pleasantly surprised...surprised it wasn't about three tiers below Jack Bodell's. Comparing it to Lewis's is troll-like and, sadly, pathetic.
It is good to see that you are making a concerted effort to uphold the quality of debates on this site.

I don't think I have ever read a post with a higher ratio between insults and fact based arguments!
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Old 06-26-2013, 07:43 AM   #278
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

I only called you a troll, I think you are one. I've just read another of your posts in a separate thread and quite frankly, you come across as A desperate, sad idiot who simply can't accept that 190 pound fighters don't dominate any more- and never will...and probably puts it down to "they don't make 'em like that anymore"...when reality is, for the past 20+ years, many of them have been those guys at cruiserweight, who just aren't good enough to make it in the glamour division...i'm sure in their hearts they dream of the day when the 6ft5 heavyweight monsters once again have the skills of Buddy Baer and Abe Simon...and Jack O'Hallaran...and Leroy Jones...and, who knows, maybe that time will come again.
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Old 06-26-2013, 08:07 AM   #279
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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I haven't seen such brilliant schooling in ages,,,

Moe you are the man!

The man has not made one single fact based argument in any of his posts, and you somehow feel that he has schooled me?

I cant refute a post that has nothing to refute in it, and I have no with to get drawn into a name calling contest.

I begin to doubt wheter you even understand what constitutes effective debate!
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Old 06-26-2013, 11:50 AM   #280
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

Joe's handspeed and combination power punching would be too much, and he knows all the fundamentals to pick apart Lennox's weaknesses (keeps hands low, weak chin, etc). Brown Bomber by KO.
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Old 06-27-2013, 11:09 AM   #281
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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No mate I am certainly not. I would stake a huge bet that if we had a pressure test for them, Holy would certainly rate higher than Louis. I don't LIKE having to rely on size but pull up Louis on wiki and look at his picture hard. Anybody who thinks this guy, considering Holy was a pro boxer and the champ, no matter how good his technique was could hit as hard as Holy has to be absolutely brainwashed!

If you adjust Louis' KOratio appropriately, you'll find he was a decent puncher but nothing special.

In fact most all of these all time greats aren't anything so special they could transgress many eras... They are simply FAMOUS and now... HYPED!
This may not impress you.

Joe Louis held the title for eleven years and 8 months. Not the IBF, WBA, or WBC. No. He held the only title. The same one that John L. Sullivan held. Joe beat everyone that held the title before that were still fighting including cleaning and recleaning out his division and the lightheavyweight division for good measure. For eleven years! I think that is still a boxing record. 23 title defenses out of 25 were KO's. I that is a record as well. He lost a few prime year to WWI BTW. Would have been maybe 30.

The next champion after Joe was Ezzard Charles who was born in 1921. He was 16 when Louis won the title in 1937. Louis was probably his boyhood hero. The next 11 years after Joe had 6 different heavyweight champions. Charles, Walcott, Marciano, Patterson, Johansson, and Liston.

All of these men were GREAT fighters with the exception of Johansson. This is why Louis is so famous? Because he was the greatest until Ali came along. One comes close to those two.

As undesputed champions:
Mike Tyson was it for 2 years and 6 months (then KO'ed by Buster Douglas)
Lennox Lewis was the undesputed champion for 1 year (then KO'ed by Hasim Rahman)
Evander Holyfield: 2 years then losing the Bowe. (No shame in this one)

That totals a combined 5 years and change as undesputed champions from the three GREAT fighters.

What do you think of all this? Is Joe is a overated bum...along with all of the other old-time fighters, or with your clear rational mind will you concede that people who are in awe of this man Joe Louis have some good reason for it?

Last edited by JLP 6; 06-27-2013 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:04 PM   #282
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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This may not impress you.

Joe Louis held the title for eleven years and 8 months. Not the IBF, WBA, or WBC. No. He held the only title. The same one that John L. Sullivan held. Joe beat everyone that held the title before that were still fighting including cleaning and recleaning out his division and the lightheavyweight division for good measure. For eleven years! I think that is still a boxing record. 23 title defenses out of 25 were KO's. I that is a record as well. He lost a few prime year to WWI BTW. Would have been maybe 30.

The next champion after Joe was Ezzard Charles who was born in 1921. He was 16 when Louis won the title in 1937. Louis was probably his boyhood hero. The next 11 years after Joe had 6 different heavyweight champions. Charles, Walcott, Marciano, Patterson, Johansson, and Liston.

All of these men were GREAT fighters with the exception of Johansson. This is why Louis is so famous? Because he was the greatest until Ali came along. One comes close to those two.

As undesputed champions:
Mike Tyson was it for 2 years and 6 months (then KO'ed by Buster Douglas)
Lennox Lewis was the undesputed champion for 1 year (then KO'ed by Hasim Rahman)
Evander Holyfield: 2 years then losing the Bowe. (No shame in this one)

That totals a combined 5 years and change as undesputed champions from the three GREAT fighters.

What do you think of all this? Is Joe is a overated bum...along with all of the other old-time fighters, or with your clear rational mind will you concede that people who are in awe of this man Joe Louis have some good reason for it?

JPL, you're confusing accomplishments with H2H outcomes. Nobody would dispute that in terms of accomplishments Louis is at worst 2nd best in history, but H2H beating the likes of Conn isn't all that impressive. They wouldn't even allow Conn into the ring with Lewis in todays boxing world, nor Marciano for that matter.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:06 PM   #283
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

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JPL, you're confusing accomplishments with H2H outcomes. Nobody would dispute that in terms of accomplishments Louis is at worst 2nd best in history, but H2H beating the likes of Conn isn't all that impressive. They wouldn't even allow Conn into the ring with Lewis in todays boxing world, nor Marciano for that matter.
On little matter though.

H2H is ultimately speculative.

How many of us expected Stevenson to just walk through Chad Dawson for example.

Resume is a given.

We can at least be prety sure that Louis beat Conn.
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:10 PM   #284
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Default Re: Lennox Lewis VS Joe Louis

Janitor....have we mentioned how Danny divito (tony galento ) decked and nearly beat Louis?
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Old 06-27-2013, 04:15 PM   #285
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Janitor....have we mentioned how Danny divito (tony galento ) decked and nearly beat Louis?
It tells you a lot that people have to attack Louis based on a fight that he actualy won.

A fight that only lasted a few rounds.

With most fighters, you can find a suitably ugly loss on their record.
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