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Old 10-14-2007, 08:55 AM   #1
Mendoza
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Default Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Here's the news read. It appears O'Brein won two rounds ( 2 and 4 ), while Johnson only won one round ( 5 ). Rounds 1, 3 and 6 were even. Mayeb O'breien edged round three. Box Rec reports that the Trenton Times reported that the referee stated he thought o'Brien the winner by a shade. It sounds that way based on the read.

A few thoughts to ponder. O'brien was quick boxer mover type, and he had no issues landing on Johnson. Is Johnson defese really that special? I don't see much of it on flim unless he is clinching or fighting clumsy / much smaller fighters with limited reach like Flynn or Ketchel.

If a middle weight with a good jab could land on prime Jack Johnson, what would the better all time heavyweight do?

At the very least O'Brein deserved a re-match.

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Old 10-14-2007, 09:16 AM   #2
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Clearly there is no doubt Johnson di not take it as seriously as he should have, but he did struggle with slick boxers. Other great fighters also met top notch light-heavies but with better results: Dempsey won 12 out of 15 rounds vs Gibbons, ko'd Levinsky and Carpeinter, Louis ko'd Conn and Lewis, Marciano beat Moore and Charles, both natural light-heavies, but well over the 175 lb limit. So these fighters did better vs light-heavies
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:22 AM   #3
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Here's the news read. It appears O'Brein won two rounds ( 2 and 4 ), while Johnson only won one round ( 5 ). Rounds 1, 3 and 6 were even. Mayeb O'breien edged round three. Box Rec reports that the Trenton Times reported that the referee stated he thought o'Brien the winner by a shade. It sounds that way based on the read.

A few thoughts to ponder. O'brien was quick boxer mover type, and he had no issues landing on Johnson. Is Johnson defese really that special? I don't see much of it on flim unless he is clinching or fighting clumsy / much smaller fighters with limited reach like Flynn or Ketchel.

If a middle weight with a good jab could land on prime Jack Johnson, what would the better all time heavyweight do?

At the very least O'Brein deserved a re-match.

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Boxrec also states that O'Brien was down in the first and fifth rounds- kind of an important bit of information to sweep under the table, don't you think? Anyway, the match was essentially an exhibition, where Johnson would only have lost the title if he'd been knocked out, as I recall. One can hardly watch a performance in a fight like that and think he can simply transpose it into a real, competitive world championship match.

Now, you're certainly bringing a lot of good information and resources to the table and are staying civil, but I've got to say, you seem to have come to an almost Revolver-like obsession with making as many threads as possible for the sole purpose of defaming Johnson.
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
If a middle weight with a good jab could land on prime Jack Johnson, what would the better all time heavyweight do?
If Johnson could turn up to a bout with a hangover and fight O'Brien on even terms knocking him down twice then what would he do to him if he actualy took the fight seriously.

Lets face it O'Brien was never going to get a more favourable set of circumstances.
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Old 10-14-2007, 10:41 AM   #5
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Boxrec also states that O'Brien was down in the first and fifth rounds- kind of an important bit of information to sweep under the table, don't you think? Anyway, the match was essentially an exhibition, where Johnson would only have lost the title if he'd been knocked out, as I recall. One can hardly watch a performance in a fight like that and think he can simply transpose it into a real, competitive world championship match.
I have never heard that O'Brien was down twice. Was O'brein down in the first? This report does mention that. It does say he was down in the 5th.
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:17 AM   #6
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
I have never heard that O'Brien was down twice. Was O'brein down in the first? This report does mention that. It does say he was down in the 5th.
You just referred to what Boxrec says about Johnson-O'Brien- haven't you read it? Directly under the words "World Heavyweight Title" are the words "O'Brien down in the first and fifth."
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:42 AM   #7
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
You just referred to what Boxrec says about Johnson-O'Brien- haven't you read it? Directly under the words "World Heavyweight Title" are the words "O'Brien down in the first and fifth."
I missed that part on Box rec. I was focusing more on the news report, and the decision. Sometimes news reports can miss things. I have made a mental note that O'brien was down in the 1st according to Box rec.

Box rec also says this is a world title fight, not essentially an exhibition match as you stated. I think we both learned something new. Thanks.
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:56 AM   #8
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I missed that part on Box rec. I was focusing more on the news report, and the decision. Sometimes news reports can miss things. I have made a mental note that O'brien was down in the 1st according to Box rec.

Box rec also says this is a world title fight, not essentially an exhibition match as you stated. I think we both learned something new. Thanks.
I said essentially an exhibition, in the sense that the title wasn't at stake unless Johnson was knocked out- in other words, it didn't too much matter if he made sure to win every second of every round, because it would count for anything unless he was knocked out.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:05 PM   #9
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
I have never heard that O'Brien was down twice. Was O'brein down in the first? This report does mention that. It does say he was down in the 5th.
Actually, it mentions that he was down twice in the first, once "rushed" off his feet, and the second "shoved" down. The report says in the text that O'Brien was badly hurt in the 4th and had to hold repeatedly for a minute, but the round by round never describes any of this.
It is interesting to see these old fight reports, and to hear the paper's opinion, but we would need a cross section of the press to draw any conclusion, and it would help if a couple of accounts were from the black press. In this fight, O'Brien is down at least twice, bloodied from the mouth, and suffers a bad cut over the eye, but supposedly comes out even.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:25 PM   #10
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

I have always read that O'Brien was "felled" because Johnson was so much heavier than he was and it was due to leaning, not due to punching.
The overall newspaper consensus was that Johnson was lucky to get away with a draw.

This took place in Philadelphia, home of the "no decision rule". It is quite possible that had it been allowed to be scored, PJOB would have outpointed him.

In all fairness, Johnson knew that O'Brien could not hurt him, and there was absolutely no chance for a knockout, and that it would make him 5,000 dollars. Showed up hungover and fat. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it makes sense that PJOB's little pitty pat punches gave him points over Johnson.

I am surprised there wasn't more of an outcry for a more serious rematch. White America was hellbent on finding some kind of destructive KO artist to knock Johnson out, which fell right into Johnson's strong suit (in my mind like Ali vs Ali's destructive opponents) when maybe all they had to do was give little Jack O'Brien 15 rounds and a fairly good sized ring and hold it in a town that allowed decisions.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:42 PM   #11
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langford
I have always read that O'Brien was "felled" because Johnson was so much heavier than he was and it was due to leaning, not due to punching.
The overall newspaper consensus was that Johnson was lucky to get away with a draw.

This took place in Philadelphia, home of the "no decision rule". It is quite possible that had it been allowed to be scored, PJOB would have outpointed him.

In all fairness, Johnson knew that O'Brien could not hurt him, and there was absolutely no chance for a knockout, and that it would make him 5,000 dollars. Showed up hungover and fat. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it makes sense that PJOB's little pitty pat punches gave him points over Johnson.

I am surprised there wasn't more of an outcry for a more serious rematch. White America was hellbent on finding some kind of destructive KO artist to knock Johnson out, which fell right into Johnson's strong suit (in my mind like Ali vs Ali's destructive opponents) when maybe all they had to do was give little Jack O'Brien 15 rounds and a fairly good sized ring and hold it in a town that allowed decisions.
The fact that there was no clamour for a rematch might also tell you all you need to know. Johnson might not even have been training, if he can be believed on the matter, and in a serious fight I doubt if O'Brien gets the fight to the judges. Ketchel was better than O'Brien and actually knocked him out but O'Brien was saved by the bell.

The very newspaper report you just read explicitly describes the fifth round knockdown as from a punch.
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Old 10-14-2007, 12:53 PM   #12
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

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Originally Posted by OLD FOGEY
The fact that there was no clamour for a rematch might also tell you all you need to know. Johnson might not even have been training, if he can be believed on the matter, and in a serious fight I doubt if O'Brien gets the fight to the judges. Ketchel was better than O'Brien and actually knocked him out but Jack was saved by the bell.
OF,

It tells me that when white America was looking for a possible candidate they were ignorant when it comes to finding a fighter who stylistically matched well against Johnson. O'Brien matched poorly with Ketchel, he matches quite well against Johnson and I see no reason why he wouldn't be a tougher fight than Ketchel against Johnson. Because Ketchel beats O'Brien and Johnson KO's Ketchel does not mean that Ketchel is automatically better for the job than Phily Jack. Ketchel had a lethal punch and was killer, PJOB was a slick darting type guy with no punch power. Ketchel would trade, PJOB would float and sting (ok, maybe not sting, but tap).

It is possible that Johnson would have caught O'Brien somewhere over the 15 the way Louis caught Conn, but it is also possible that O'Brien was smarter of his strengths than was Conn and could have evaded and scored his way to a UD.
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Old 10-14-2007, 01:27 PM   #13
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langford
OF,

It tells me that when white America was looking for a possible candidate they were ignorant when it comes to finding a fighter who stylistically matched well against Johnson. O'Brien matched poorly with Ketchel, he matches quite well against Johnson and I see no reason why he wouldn't be a tougher fight than Ketchel against Johnson. Because Ketchel beats O'Brien and Johnson KO's Ketchel does not mean that Ketchel is automatically better for the job than Phily Jack. Ketchel had a lethal punch and was killer, PJOB was a slick darting type guy with no punch power. Ketchel would trade, PJOB would float and sting (ok, maybe not sting, but tap).

It is possible that Johnson would have caught O'Brien somewhere over the 15 the way Louis caught Conn, but it is also possible that O'Brien was smarter of his strengths than was Conn and could have evaded and scored his way to a UD.
No way I personally think O'Brien is that difficult an opponent. I do not agree with the sylistic arguement. Johnson probably hadn't trained for this fight at all, and O'Brien was still down at least twice, and badly bloodied. I have been reading on boxing since the fifties and I do not remember any articles back then implying O'Brien did all that well. This is something that comes up a hundred years after the fact and is probably somewhat due to spin.
There is, I suppose, the chance O'Brien would do what he did on film with Burns, just outright run away and not fight at all. Would white judges have then screwed Johnson? It is not out of the question.
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Old 10-14-2007, 01:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langford
I have always read that O'Brien was "felled" because Johnson was so much heavier than he was and it was due to leaning, not due to punching.
The overall newspaper consensus was that Johnson was lucky to get away with a draw.

This took place in Philadelphia, home of the "no decision rule". It is quite possible that had it been allowed to be scored, PJOB would have outpointed him.

In all fairness, Johnson knew that O'Brien could not hurt him, and there was absolutely no chance for a knockout, and that it would make him 5,000 dollars. Showed up hungover and fat. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it makes sense that PJOB's little pitty pat punches gave him points over Johnson.

I am surprised there wasn't more of an outcry for a more serious rematch. White America was hellbent on finding some kind of destructive KO artist to knock Johnson out, which fell right into Johnson's strong suit (in my mind like Ali vs Ali's destructive opponents) when maybe all they had to do was give little Jack O'Brien 15 rounds and a fairly good sized ring and hold it in a town that allowed decisions.
From the stuff I have seen, O’Brien was a shade better and Johnson was lucky to avoid the score cards. A decision could have cost him his title.

I'm not sure if O'Brien was down from punches or pushes in round one. His jabs bothered Johnson, and marked him up too. O'Brien's speed and defense made Johnson look bad. Johnson landed the harder blows and did hurt O'Brien. So the scoring comes down to do you give the fight to the guy who landed more punches and showed better defense, or the fighter who landed less punches, but harder punches?

Who won? Maybe there was not a clear cut winner. One telling point might be from Johnson’s lack of words. Johnson was the type to run his mouth and taunt. The paper said he did not have much to say about his performance excpet he flet he won.

A re-match would have been interesting.
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:33 PM   #15
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Here's the news read. It appears O'Brein won two rounds ( 2 and 4 ), while Johnson only won one round ( 5 ). Rounds 1, 3 and 6 were even. Mayeb O'breien edged round three. Box Rec reports that the Trenton Times reported that the referee stated he thought o'Brien the winner by a shade. It sounds that way based on the read.

A few thoughts to ponder. O'brien was quick boxer mover type, and he had no issues landing on Johnson. Is Johnson defese really that special? I don't see much of it on flim unless he is clinching or fighting clumsy / much smaller fighters with limited reach like Flynn or Ketchel.

If a middle weight with a good jab could land on prime Jack Johnson, what would the better all time heavyweight do?

At the very least O'Brein deserved a re-match.

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In a No Decision fight ,nobody wins,thats the point of it,unless a challenger can stop his opponent the fight is a no decision,get it? Various fighters took advantage of this rule to put on "exhibitions"Johnson fought Joe Jeanette several times under this rule ,their fights are reported as well choreagraphed sparring sessions ,both got a payday and no one was hurt,sometimes they really cut loose ,but the nodecision rule allowed Champions like Willard for example to take on challengers like Moran,keep him on the end of his pole like left and get a pay day.Lazy fighters like Johnson took the opportunity under this ruling to come in to fights out of shape ,he didt train for the O Brien fight and had been drinking the night before,its not a secret.Now you want to make another stick and say O Brien should have got the verdict in a nodecision fight?
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