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Old 10-14-2007, 03:34 PM   #16
mcvey
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Langford
OF,

It tells me that when white America was looking for a possible candidate they were ignorant when it comes to finding a fighter who stylistically matched well against Johnson. O'Brien matched poorly with Ketchel, he matches quite well against Johnson and I see no reason why he wouldn't be a tougher fight than Ketchel against Johnson. Because Ketchel beats O'Brien and Johnson KO's Ketchel does not mean that Ketchel is automatically better for the job than Phily Jack. Ketchel had a lethal punch and was killer, PJOB was a slick darting type guy with no punch power. Ketchel would trade, PJOB would float and sting (ok, maybe not sting, but tap).

It is possible that Johnson would have caught O'Brien somewhere over the 15 the way Louis caught Conn, but it is also possible that O'Brien was smarter of his strengths than was Conn and could have evaded and scored his way to a UD.
Its also possible that in a proper fight ie one going to a decision Johnson would have come in in shape and done to OBrien what Ketchel did.
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:44 PM   #17
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

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Originally Posted by mcvey
Now you want to make another stick and say O Brien should have got the verdict in a nodecision fight?
Question for McVey,

Do you think O'Brien deserved a re-match?
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Here's the news read. It appears O'Brein won two rounds ( 2 and 4 ), while Johnson only won one round ( 5 ). Rounds 1, 3 and 6 were even. Mayeb O'breien edged round three. Box Rec reports that the Trenton Times reported that the referee stated he thought o'Brien the winner by a shade. It sounds that way based on the read.

A few thoughts to ponder. O'brien was quick boxer mover type, and he had no issues landing on Johnson. Is Johnson defese really that special? I don't see much of it on flim unless he is clinching or fighting clumsy / much smaller fighters with limited reach like Flynn or Ketchel.

If a middle weight with a good jab could land on prime Jack Johnson, what would the better all time heavyweight do?

At the very least O'Brein deserved a re-match.

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O Brien couldnt beat Burns when he was in his prime ,now past his prime being kod twice by a middleweight you think he beats Johnson who won every round against Burns and played with Ketchel? Johnson was on a guarantee of 5000$ for the fight and thats all he was concerned with .Randy Roberts on the "fight","he entered the ring overweight ,and in poor condtion. Rumours spread that he had been drinking the night before ,and on the day of the fight.It was an uninspired fight.O Briens attack was timid,and Johnsons defenceand counterattack consisted mostly of laughter.He smiled ,he wavedto the crowd ,and made no attempt tohide the purpose ofhis presence ,he was there for the 5000$ gaurantee and nothing more."

Last edited by one punch; 08-02-2006 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 10-14-2007, 03:58 PM   #19
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
O Brien couldnt beat Burns when he was in his prime ,now past his prime being kod twice by a middleweight you think he beats Johnson who won every round against Burns and played with Ketchel? Johnson was on a guarantee of 5000$ for the fight and thats all he was concerned with .Randy Roberts on the "fight","he entered the ring overweight ,and in poor condtion. Rumours spread that he had been drinking the night before ,and on the day of the fight.It was an uninspired fight.O Briens attack was timid,and Johnsons defenceand counterattack consisted mostly of laughter.He smiled ,he wavedto the crowd ,and made no attempt tohide the purpose ofhis presence ,he was there for the 5000$ gaurantee and nothing more."

Leaving the rumors out of the conversation, O'brien in fact had a win over a healthy Burns, beat a fresher version of Fitzsimmons, beat Young Peter Jackson, beat Mike Schreck and beat many of the same lesser fighters ( Jeffords, Butler, Black Bill, and others ) that Johnson fought.

In addition, O'Brien drew with Hart who beat Johnson, and defeated Choynski who knocked Johnson out. I'd say O'Brien's resume was very good.

Once again, I ask you an easy question to answer. Should Johnson have given O'brien a re-match or not.
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:05 PM   #20
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

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Originally Posted by Mendoza
Question for McVey,

Do you think O'Brien deserved a re-match?
No ,the accounts I read statye his approach to the fight was "timid",this was against a palpably undertrained Johnson,OBrien couldnt beat Burns when he was in his prime ,what makes you think that ,past his prime he had a realistic chance with Johnson? Honestly I cant see it in all seriousness.
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:07 PM   #21
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

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Originally Posted by dmt
Clearly there is no doubt Johnson di not take it as seriously as he should have, but he did struggle with slick boxers. Other great fighters also met top notch light-heavies but with better results: Dempsey won 12 out of 15 rounds vs Gibbons, ko'd Levinsky and Carpeinter, Louis ko'd Conn and Lewis, Marciano beat Moore and Charles, both natural light-heavies, but well over the 175 lb limit. So these fighters did better vs light-heavies
Which slick boxer do you think Johnson struggled with?
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:17 PM   #22
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
No ,the accounts I read statye his approach to the fight was "timid",this was against a palpably undertrained Johnson,OBrien couldnt beat Burns when he was in his prime ,what makes you think that ,past his prime he had a realistic chance with Johnson? Honestly I cant see it in all seriousness.
Maybe the fact that he landed jabs with ease and made Johnson looked bad. A re-match should have been made within 6 months. Johnson wasn't an active fighter by nature. He liked to clinch and punch.

O'brien would not let him clinch him, and threw more punches. I have seen O'Brien move for a full 20 rounds on flim. This is a good match up. Johnson didn't KO many class guys, and he would have to catch up to O'brein which woudl be harder as the rounds rolled on..

Stylewise, this is not an easy fight for Johnson, and in reality the performance of the 6 round match proves it.

I see you don;t want to comment on O'brein beating Choynski and drawing with Hart when Johnson lost to both of them. If you compare O'Brien's and Johnson's common opponets, up to 1909, its close enough. A re-match was in order. I wonder why we did not see one.

PS: O'Brein KO'd Kaufmann. Johnson took Kaufmann the distance.
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:18 PM   #23
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

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Originally Posted by Marciano Frazier
Boxrec also states that O'Brien was down in the first and fifth rounds- kind of an important bit of information to sweep under the table, don't you think? Anyway, the match was essentially an exhibition, where Johnson would only have lost the title if he'd been knocked out, as I recall. One can hardly watch a performance in a fight like that and think he can simply transpose it into a real, competitive world championship match.

Now, you're certainly bringing a lot of good information and resources to the table and are staying civil, but I've got to say, you seem to have come to an almost Revolver-like obsession with making as many threads as possible for the sole purpose of defaming Johnson.
Im not the only one to notice this trend then?
In all honesty the man is entitled to like and dislike any fighter he chooses,but its getting obsessive now,I happen to think Jack Johnson was a great fighter,shitty human being probably but there you are,its just my laymans opinion,Im cool with anyone who diasgrees ,after all what would be the point of a forum if we all had the same opinion?
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:22 PM   #24
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
Which slick boxer do you think Johnson struggled with?
Which Slick boxer did Johnson fight? O'Brien for one. Jeff Clark was a slick contender.

Clark beat Jeanette, McCarty, Dixie Kid, Livensky, Battling Jim Johnson, and others while Johnson was champion. No title shot for him either.
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:24 PM   #25
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcvey
what would be the point of a forum if we all had the same opinion?
Amazingly there are people who seem to want to convert everybody to their own opinion and then presumably shut the forum down because it no longer has a purpouse.

Not saying Mendoza is one but there are some people who are only here to confront people with diferent opinions.
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Old 10-14-2007, 04:42 PM   #26
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Leaving the rumors out of the conversation, O'brien in fact had a win over a healthy Burns, beat a fresher version of Fitzsimmons, beat Young Peter Jackson, beat Mike Schreck and beat many of the same lesser fighters ( Jeffords, Butler, Black Bill, and others ) that Johnson fought.

In addition, O'Brien drew with Hart who beat Johnson, and defeated Choynski who knocked Johnson out. I'd say O'Brien's resume was very good.

Once again, I ask you an easy question to answer. Should Johnson have given O'brien a re-match or not.
Lets take your points.
"OBrien had a win over a healthy Burns. UNTRUE,he drew with Burns in1906,and lost in 20rds to him in 1907.
"Obrien beat a fresher Fitz" OBrien beat Fitz by a tko in13 rds in1905 to win the LH title. I n1907 Johnson kod Fitz in 2rds ,and never claimed any credit for it,nor should he as Fitz was born in1862! Which means he was 45 when OBrien beat him over 13 rounds ,and 47 when Johnson beat him in2 rounds,what is your point here exactly?
Young Peter Jackson kod OBrien with a legitimate punch coming out of a clinch ,this was in 2 rounds ,the crowd cheered ,but after Jackson left the ring the referee awarded a foul to OBrien,this account is on Box rec.
OBriens resume you mentoined?
he wins theLH title from a 45 year old man who takes him13 rounds is kod twice by a middle weight held to draws by Welterweights I dont see a great resume.
Immediatelt prior to the Johnson fight OBrien fought Ketchel,in the last round of a no decision fight he is kod ,the bell saved him from a ko defeat . Immediately after fighting Johnson in a NO DECISION 6 rounder,remember now NO DECISION,OBrien meets Ketchel again and is laid out in 3 rounds!
Now ask your self why Johnson should have given him a title fight.
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Old 10-14-2007, 05:13 PM   #27
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Which Slick boxer did Johnson fight? O'Brien for one. Jeff Clark was a slick contender.

Clark beat Jeanette, McCarty, Dixie Kid, Livensky, Battling Jim Johnson, and others while Johnson was champion. No title shot for him either.
Question . Why do you keep claiming NO DECISION fights as wins for people?
for example."Clark beat Jeanette,McCarty,Dixie KId ,Levinsky, and Battling Jim Johnson" NO HE DIDNT These were all NO DECISION fights.You are trying to build up Clark as an opponent that Johnson ducke d while Champion ,ok lets look at his resume from 1908 to1915,the time that Johnson was reigning Champion. In 1908 A year before Johnson won the title Clark lost 2 fights to Dixie Kid. Aman who 4 years before when he was in his prime had been a WELTERWEIGHT!.His next biggest fight was in1910when he was kod in 2 rounds by Sam Langford,in 1911 he is held to a draw by middle weight Frank Mantell.Clark never beat Jeanette,JIm Johnson,or Levinsky ,and in 1915 ,Johnson s last year as Champion ,Clark wasbeaten by Sam Mcvey in 10 rounds,why should Johnson have given him a title shot?
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Old 10-14-2007, 06:52 PM   #28
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

I think that it comes down to this - Johnson was the type of fighter
that liked his opponent to come bulling in. Jack would either jab
the hell out of the guy OR pummel the fighter with his great uppercut
in close. Johnson was very strong at inside fighting. Yes, he held and
hit, but so did most of the fighters back then. It was allowed or
overlooked by the refs.

Jim Flynn and Al Kaufman were MADE for Johnson. They moved forward and he picked them apart. O'brien had the style to give Jack fits. Darting in and out, and using speed and footwork.

Johnson had to somewhat change his style and become the aggressor
against Willard, since Willard had so much reach on him.

Willard was not a good type of opponent for Jack. Gunboat Smith
also could bang, had a decent jab, and was about 6' 1".
So, Gunboat had a style that also was not good for Jack. Only
thing is that Gunboat was KOED several times when he has still
young/in his prime, so lack of durability might have been a problem
for Gunboat. Though Gunboat beat Langford in their FIRST fight,
Langford destroyed Gunboat in their second fight. Still, stylewise,
Gunboat would probably have given Jack a good fight.

Jack was dropped by Phillip Piersenn in an exhibition fight. Does
anyone have any info on Piersenn?

Jack would have probably easily beaten all of the other "White
Hopes", with the exception of Luther McCarty. Had McCarty
not met with tragedy, I feel that a Johnson-McCarty fight
would have been something!!! Though by the time that McCarty
was experienced enough to fight Johnson, Jack would have been
about the same age that he was when he lost to Willard.

Heres my take on the type of fighter that could take Jack;
1) Needs a good chin or else a good defense, cause Jack was
quick and threw great jabs.
2) Better have good stamina, cause its not likely that Jack will
be taken out early.
3) Good jab essential. Straight punches work way better against
a good defensive fighter. The wild swinging guys were eaten up
by Johnson.

Willard had all of these attributes. Gunboat Smith had a good jab
and stamina, though I'm not convinced that he was all that durable.



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Old 10-14-2007, 07:05 PM   #29
Mendoza
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
mcvey Lets take your points.
"OBrien had a win over a healthy Burns. UNTRUE,he drew with Burns in1906,and lost in 20rds to him in 1907.
Untrue? Says you! O'brein beat Burns when he had 23 wins, 1 loss and 4 draws in 1904!

Quote:
"Obrien beat a fresher Fitz" OBrien beat Fitz by a tko in13 rds in1905 to win the LH title. I n1907 Johnson kod Fitz in 2rds ,and never claimed any credit for it,nor should he as Fitz was born in1862! Which means he was 45 when OBrien beat him over 13 rounds ,and 47 when Johnson beat him in2 rounds,what is your point here exactly?
My point was O'brein beat a much better version of Fitz. You can not say any different.

Quote:
Young Peter Jackson kod OBrien with a legitimate punch coming out of a clinch ,this was in 2 rounds ,the crowd cheered ,but after Jackson left the ring the referee awarded a foul to OBrien,this account is on Box rec.
OBriens resume you mentoined?
And O'Brein beat Young Peter Jackson in a 10 round fight too.

Quote:
he wins theLH title from a 45 year old man who takes him13 rounds is kod twice by a middle weight held to draws by Welterweights I dont see a great resume.
I think your math is off by about three years.... and O'brein deserved a re-match.
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Old 10-14-2007, 07:06 PM   #30
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Default Re: Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mendoza
Maybe the fact that he landed jabs with ease and made Johnson looked bad. A re-match should have been made within 6 months. Johnson wasn't an active fighter by nature. He liked to clinch and punch.

O'brien would not let him clinch him, and threw more punches. I have seen O'Brien move for a full 20 rounds on flim. This is a good match up. Johnson didn't KO many class guys, and he would have to catch up to O'brein which woudl be harder as the rounds rolled on..

Stylewise, this is not an easy fight for Johnson, and in reality the performance of the 6 round match proves it.

I see you don;t want to comment on O'brein beating Choynski and drawing with Hart when Johnson lost to both of them. If you compare O'Brien's and Johnson's common opponets, up to 1909, its close enough. A re-match was in order. I wonder why we did not see one.

PS: O'Brein KO'd Kaufmann. Johnson took Kaufmann the distance.
"PS: O'Brien KO'd Kaufman. Johnson took Kaufman the distance."

This is the type of remark that looks like piling on against Johnson. We have had post after post dismissing Johnson's wins over the 19 year old McVea, a fighter who had beaten world class fighters in Martin and Carter. Now the 19 year old Kaufman, in his 6th (or perhaps only 2nd) professional fight against a veteran of at least 140 fights is stopped in 17 rounds by O'Brien and a big deal is made of it. Kaufman went on to win 15 straight over the next four years before fighting Johnson, including wins over Jack Twin Sullivan, Olympic champion Sam Berger, Mike Shreck, who beat Burns and ko'd Hart twice, Fireman Jim Flynn, and Jim Barry. Johnson did go the "distance" with Kaufman but the distance was 10 rounds. In his next fight, Kaufman defeated O'Brien.
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