Johnson vs O'Brein. Who won? Here's the report.

[Dempsey1238]

I belive O' Brein was on the way out when Ketchal ko him.

[Langford]

McVey

If you were to build a fighter to go up against Johnson would you:

1. Pick a guy who Johnson would have to make an effort to attack
2. Pick a guy that came straight at Johnson and into his defense?

1. A guy with knockout power with very little chance of landing
2. A guy who put punches together and knew he had to build up points?

1. someone who was fast on the backfoot or
2. someone who was willing to trade?

1. A ring vet with hard won ring knowledge
2. A green opponent who Johnson was smarter than

It makes no difference whom O'Brien lost to if they did not fight the same as Johnson did...if you believe that styles make fights.
Ketchel and Burns were very good little men who fought as big men. Little men who fight like big men get into trouble when they fight against real big men.
O'Brien was a little dude who did not pretend that he was something else.

Most everyone who say the Johnson vs. O'Brien fight said O'Brien did his fair share of making Johnson look bad. Even though Johnson was out of shape and perhaps hungover (which was not all that rare) there are few instances where Johnson looked bad. Style comes into play here too, man.

I am not saying that Johnson was the worse boxer or the worse heavyweight.
That would be silly. I am saying that I would give O'Brien a much better chance of doing well against Johnson than any other of the white hopes that he fought throughout his reign because of styles. Kaufman, Flynn, Ross, six years out of it Jeff, Moran, these are fights that Johnson wins with his eyes closed every time.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Langford

McVey

If you were to build a fighter to go up against Johnson would you:

1. Pick a guy who Johnson would have to make an effort to attack
2. Pick a guy that came straight at Johnson and into his defense?

1. A guy with knockout power with very little chance of landing
2. A guy who put punches together and knew he had to build up points?

1. someone who was fast on the backfoot or
2. someone who was willing to trade?

1. A ring vet with hard won ring knowledge
2. A green opponent who Johnson was smarter than

It makes no difference whom O'Brien lost to if they did not fight the same as Johnson did...if you believe that styles make fights.
Ketchel and Burns were very good little men who fought as big men. Little men who fight like big men get into trouble when they fight against real big men.
O'Brien was a little dude who did not pretend that he was something else.

Most everyone who say the Johnson vs. O'Brien fight said O'Brien did his fair share of making Johnson look bad. Even though Johnson was out of shape and perhaps hungover (which was not all that rare) there are few instances where Johnson looked bad. Style comes into play here too, man.

I am not saying that Johnson was the worse boxer or the worse heavyweight.
That would be silly. I am saying that I would give O'Brien a much better chance of doing well against Johnson than any other of the white hopes that he fought throughout his reign because of styles. Kaufman, Flynn, Ross, six years out of it Jeff, Moran, these are fights that Johnson wins with his eyes closed every time.

I think we are at cross purposes here the original theme put forward by Mendoza was that Johnson dicked a return with OBrien,who by his performance in their no dec 6 rounder deserved a rerurn match.Do you agree so far?My argument was that OBriens subsequent performances inccluding being kod in3 rounds only a month later ,and only winning one more fight in his career eliminated him from consideration as a contender.Do you agree or disagree?
Nowif you want to talk about stylistic advantages ,or the lack of them ,ok.Mendoza says that OBriens fast jab scored points against Johnson ,and that his mobile footwork would have given Johnson problems,is that an accurate asseessment so far? I say Johnson in his prime would have beaten a prime O Brien,,so lets talk prime to prime now ,not the overthe hill OObrien that Johnson loafed around with ,who mendoza said should have got a draw <Ive several accounts that say he ran like a rabbit ,while Johnson laughed and grinned at the disgruntled crowd,no matter.For OBrine to beat Johnsonhe has to come to him to score with his jab,he can box off the back foot agreed but he has to get in punching range to land his left .Johnson is bigger better defensively imo,after all he was never kod in his prime ,whereas Obrien was kod several times ,and by men lighter than himself.when Obrien gets in punching range ,what is Johnson going to be doing? You seem to have this picture of Johnson as a static statue who doesnt move,its true against tear in fighters ,he waited to counter them with ripping uppercuts ,but watch him in training ,on Utube,he can move allright,he has fast hands and more importantly fast feet,on u tube you cansee him as a middle aged chubby guy ,"conducting " watch him move,Jack Blackburn said Johnson would beat Louis because he was a mover,against runners he could move when he wanted.OBrien had no power ,agreed? so he has to win on points,does he out box Johnson ?I dont see it Johnson whether you like him or not,and theres agreat deal to dislike ,is conceded bty many to be the greatest defensive fighter of all time,what does Obrien ,even in his prime bring to the table to win this match?

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by mcvey

I think we are at cross purposes here the original theme put forward by Mendoza was that Johnson dicked a return with OBrien,who by his performance in their no dec 6 rounder deserved a rerurn match.Do you agree so far?My argument was that OBriens subsequent performances inccluding being kod in3 rounds only a month later ,and only winning one more fight in his career eliminated him from consideration as a contender.Do you agree or disagree?

That is hindsight. O'brien was a hot commodity after a close fight with Johnson. If Johnson wanted to clear up a poor showing, he gives the re-match. O’Brien was never a " white hope " type. He could fight. I beleive the term white hope is completely mis-understood. Johnson simply gave " hopes " title shots that were not threating to him. They could be white or black, small or old...but were never a prime or near prime top 5 ranked heavyweight with ability.

After O'brien gave Johnson trouble, Johnson did not seek a re-match. I think this is the key thing to focus on here. Styles make fights, and O’brien proved his could get results from a prime Jack Johnson.

We can't look into the future and eliminate a fighter from a re-match or title shot. For example Hart defeated Johnson, and Burns defeated Hart....so why should Burns face Johnson? Burns could have claimed I have already beaten Hart. Of Course Burns took a big money fight for $30,000.00 to meet Johnson. When the money was up for big money fights vs live bodies, Johnson did not agree to terms.

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by Mendoza

That is hindsight. O'brien was a hot commodity after a close fight with Johnson. If Johnson wanted to clear up a poor showing, he gives the re-match. O’Brien was never a " white hope " type. He could fight. I beleive the term white hope is completely mis-understood. Johnson simply gave " hopes " title shots that were not threating to him. They could be white or black, small or old...but were never a prime or near prime top 5 ranked heavyweight with ability.

After O'brien gave Johnson trouble, Johnson did not seek a re-match. I think this is the key thing to focus on here. Styles make fights, and O’brien proved his could get results from a prime Jack Johnson.

We can't look into the future and eliminate a fighter from a re-match or title shot. For example Hart defeated Johnson, and Burns defeated Hart....so why should Burns face Johnson? Burns could have claimed I have already beaten Hart. Of Course Burns took a big money fight for $30,000.00 to meet Johnson. When the money was up for big money fights vs live bodies, Johnson did not agree to terms.

One month after fighting Johnson in a fight which the crowd booed heartily ,OBrien was kod by a middleweight in3 rounds,that would have killed any demand for a return wouldnt it? Obrien wasnt a hot commodity,he wasa past his best LH who had never been a crowd pleaser in his prime,Im not suggesting that Obrien was totally to blame for the fiasco of a fight thatthe public saw ,Johnson as Champion should have at least put on the substance of a show ,but he took advantage of the circumstances which the fight was fought in to come in out of shape and fought accordingly,he nevr worried about pleasing the fans .Now given that Obrien was kod in 3rounds ,and I mean kod he was carried back to his corner,by a middle weight ,only 1 month after their fight why do you think there would have been a demand for a rematch? the crowd that saw their fight booed the fighters for not producing any action,Im not looking into the future here it was 4 weeks laterthat OBrien was sparked out by Ketchel making any prospect of a rematch dead in the water,,have you any reports of public demand for a rematch?

[mcvey]

Originally Posted by mcvey

One month after fighting Johnson in a fight which the crowd booed heartily ,OBrien was kod by a middleweight in3 rounds,that would have killed any demand for a return wouldnt it? Obrien wasnt a hot commodity,he wasa past his best LH who had never been a crowd pleaser in his prime,Im not suggesting that Obrien was totally to blame for the fiasco of a fight thatthe public saw ,Johnson as Champion should have at least put on the substance of a show ,but he took advantage of the circumstances which the fight was fought in to come in out of shape and fought accordingly,he nevr worried about pleasing the fans .Now given that Obrien was kod in 3rounds ,and I mean kod he was carried back to his corner,by a middle weight ,only 1 month after their fight why do you think there would have been a demand for a rematch? the crowd that saw their fight booed the fighters for not producing any action,Im not looking into the future here it was 4 weeks laterthat OBrien was sparked out by Ketchel making any prospect of a rematch dead in the water,,have you any reports of public demand for a rematch?

Im sorry Dr Mendoza ,youve been laying that stick on so much ,I think you just broke it.

[Mendoza]

Originally Posted by mcvey

Im sorry Dr Mendoza ,youve been laying that stick on so much ,I think you just broke it.

Bumping your own stuff right after you post it? This is odd. There are no degrees here. The learning process never ends. A farmer once said, “ If you hit my stubborn horse in the head with a stick, eventually he’ll get the message “. Sometimes people can be stubborn. The stick you refer to has plenty of tids bits of information left.